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My name is Philip Bialowicz and I was born in Izbica Poland, near Lublin area and eh I came

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from a small town very vibrant community, 99% Jewish. And eh the majority were Chassidi.

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They were Chassidic?

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Chassidic. And eh the rabbi, the rabbi von, von ×”×™ which [here] a century ago, was, his

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name Mortre Josef [rabbi Mordechai Josef Leiner?] he was very famous, he wrote the book,

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about the mysticism and the book was translated in eh many languages. He was also advisor

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to kings and to the government. He was also advise, eh, not only to Jews but Christians

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too. They came for his advise. Eh I came from a family of eh six children, three brothers

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and three sisters. Eh we we were, we were religious, but not Chassidic. And my brother,

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my, my, my father was very active in the community and one of the leaders.

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In what sense?

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We, we had eh, we had a business in, in a leather factory

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Aha

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and eh and eh, I came to the, eh, the leather factory helped

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us a little bit survive during the war, because we were

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Why?

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well, we were producing leather for the Germans. And this postponed our, our eh

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Deportation

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deportation. Eh, Izbica was a very poor woll (?) community, we didn’t have any eh industrial

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base and eh the children, the, eh, the, eh, the children eh graduated public school, they had

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to go to another city to study or to get a job. Because there was no jobs in Izbica. Eh my brother

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Simcha studied to be a pharmacist and eh thank to my brother I am alive today.

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I know, I know.

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And eh Izbica was very poor and u, my parents used to, used to give money to help for the Shabbat,

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to go around to help Jew poor people to, with food for the Shabbat. And also we borrowed money

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for no, with no, with no interest of people to be able to survive, to go in business. And eh Izbica

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we could, we could speak about Izbica eh days, to tell the story about Izbica before the war and

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during the war. But then the war broke out, Izbica became a waystation for the Jews of Europe.

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Because, I was told that Izbica was mentioned in the Wannsee Conference, that Izbica should take

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a big, big part in the, in the in the liquidation of the Jewish people. Because they brought to

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Izbica eh from different eh, from different from different states.

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Like Tsjechoslovakia and eh, and, and Germany and with Germany I have a very big stories about Germany.

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That the German eh transport came from Germany and the Judenrat assigned a family, name Rosenbergers,

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which is in my book, the story about the Rosenbergers, a couple with two daughters and one of the daughters,

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Herta, was mine, girlfriend, was a teenager, was mine age. Approximately. Those, we lived together

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like eh, like eh, they, like wha, despite the, the, the adjustment was very difficult because of they,

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they came from aristatic family, aristocratic family and we were very eh plain people in Izbica. So

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it took time to adjustment, but we lived together like one unit.

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How did you come to live together? That’s not clear to me.

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Huh?

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How did you come to live together?

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So they, they assigned, they assigned

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To live with you

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the Judenrat assigned the family that we should live toge, they should

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Okay

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live in our house

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Okay

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because they doesn’t, eh, we didn’t have enough room to, to give a special eh, facilities.

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Hmhm

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And eh the Rosenberger used to give me jewelry to go out to sell and they used the money

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to live, to live eh, for food and for live together. And eh eh eh the story about very

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interesting story, that one day a Mercedes came over in front of the house and the Gestapo

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came out with, with, from the, from the car, with a package under his arm

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Hmhm

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and then he walked in to my house, so I was, I was under the impression that he

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came to kill us. A German Gestapo came, came to kill us. I was hiding in the house,

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when he came in, the parents, they hug each other and, the, the wife, Rosenbergers

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wife made coffee and, and I was hi, I was shaking, how, how

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Of course!

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I think what is going on here?

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Of course

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And he eh he made a plan he, I, I understood that he give them a,

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a opt.., he, he is assigning a job for him to work in Zamość

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Ja?

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which is 21 kilometer from Izbica and to work in the airport as an engineer. And they spend, he spend

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a half an hour, when he left I asked Herta, my girlfriend, I said, tell me, what’s going on? A

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German Gestapo comes, you hug each other, you made coffee, tell me what ha, what, what, what, tell

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me the truth. She said to me eh, Fischer he was named, Fischer, I cannot reveal the sto, this is

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a, this is a, this is a, this is a secret only for the family. So I said your father told me that

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I am a member of the family, when the war will be over you’ll take me to Germany, and I’ll have

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a good life. So you shouldn’t have any secrets from me. When he came the next time, I insisted

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you must tell me. We took a blanket, we went to the forest and she revealed that he is a distant

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cousin, he’s Jewish. He’s a distant cousin, he works eleven kilometers away from Izbica in Krasnystaw,

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[geluid op achtergrond] it’s between, between Zamość, because.

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I know where it is, ja, thank you.

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And he helps us and he helps other people here. So I told her, if he is a Gestapo, he must have

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on his conscience eh many, eh, maybe he killed many Jews. You know. He said eh Fishełe [Filip]

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he is not a murderer, he is a, he works, he is assignment is on transportation from the army to,

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to Russia. And eh and then I, I asked, maybe, maybe the Rosenbergers are spies. Maybe they are

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working together with him as eh spies. Because when the transports came from Germany, they still,

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many of them came with the first, First War, First War medals on them. And they were so eh dedicated

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Germans, you know? But I could not, I could not absorb, I could not believe a, a Jewish who would

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be a Gestapo, you know? But eh, the, the, he could not save him. They went to Sobibor too. And

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he, he, he, he was caught in Krakau and he, he, he was killed. His

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Really?

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his name is Frenz, was Frenz. Maybe he had a pseudonym, his name was

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Fr, Frenz. So this is eh, one of the very important episodes

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It is!

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which, which eh, I was in the, in the, the, they were interesting to make a, to make a movie out

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of this, years ago, about that story. But I couldn’t eh, I couldn’t go into making movies that

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time, it was years ago, because I had a tragedy in my family and eh my head was not to go and make

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movies because I lost a daughter, she was seventeen years old. It’s in the book and how she wrote

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an article about, eh, she wrote herself. She also wrote her own eulogy before she died. She was

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very smart, educated and eh she was more concerned about me than about herself.

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What did she die from?

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She died from bone cancer.

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Gosh

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From the leg

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how terrible.

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like the same things like Kennedy still have. Maybe they would amputate her leg, maybe she would

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be alive, but eh she is like, was a girl, a beautiful girl, is, eh, eh, there is a picture of it

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in the, in the, my book. It was a big tragedy and I didn’t go into make any, I didn’t

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Of course not

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I thought not was to go and make movies.

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Of course not.

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So, I have, I’m go from here back and forward, so I have many

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That’s okay

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ma, many stories to tell about mine experiences, eh, before

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the war and during the war and after the war. But the main

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Philip, when you talk about this, this wo, girl, did

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she become your girlfriend, this woman Rosenfield?

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From Germany?

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Yes

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She, she was mine age. A young girl. Two, two sisters and she became my girlfriend.

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Sure

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And we were talking, it’s in the book everything, we were talking about the future,

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but, eh, but the parents, they said like I’m a member of the family.

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Sure. I’m just asking.

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Yeah.

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How large was your family?

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Huh?

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How many brothers and sisters did you have?

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There was two sisters in (?) two sisters. So the you read the book, the whole

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story about it, eh, and eh, they had, I have their pictures in the book.

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Yeah, but the people who look at this video, they don’t have the book, so, I’m

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sorry [laughs], they, they don’t have it at this moment, so, let us try to

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In the book you can buy it, they, they can, they, they, they, they can

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Sure, I will, I will

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buy, they can buy my book

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I promise to mention it, absolutely, I show a picture from the book when it’s out

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Yeah.

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No, no question about it. I mean, I do what you want.

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Izbica all Izbica should be a cemetery. What happened during the war in Izbica, that’s indescribable.

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Where many thousands of people died and they were shot. Izbica could not absorb so many thousands

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of people. Because be, be, because of the sanitary reasons, no health department. Even the doctors

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died, typhus developed, even the doctors died with the patients. And eh many, many of them died from

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Engels in camp, you know, eh, you know the story about Engels from Izbica.

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No?

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Tom Blatt told you about Engels?

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No, he didn’t.

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Huh?

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He didn’t.

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Engels was a, was a Gestapo, who was assigned to Izbica, the other one guy was Klemm. The,

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the, the Engels, he had, he, every morning he had to, he had to shot ten, fifteen people,

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and in the afternoon, this was his his satisfaction. And he was a murderer.

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Oh

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And eh and eh, and, and also he was helped by, by, by, by the Volksdeutsche Schulz. I don’t know

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if Toivi Blatt told you about the Schulz. Schulz was a watch maker before the war. In Izbica. But he

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was a Volksdeutch. I write in my book, when I went to I went to, to pay him my, my father’s watch,

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you know, when I came to pick up my watch and eh when I paid for him, he said eh, in, he said, he said

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instead in Polish Dziękuję he said danke schön. When I, when I paid him (?) and he was a big murderer.

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He was a, he was a helper to Engels, the Gestapo. Fact is eh, it’s, it’s a very funny thing with

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the Engels that after the war he went to Hamburg and he opened a café with a Jews eh, with a Jewish

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partner. And eh, they, they arrested him, he committed suicide in the, in, in jail. Engels. So there

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is many my mother my mother was shot in Iz, Izbica in, on the cemetery with a group of people. I was

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also put to, under the firing squad with a group of people and

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In the what?

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from the fi, firing squad

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yes, in the firing squad, yes?

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and when they started to shoot I fell down and I made believe that I’m dead. People fall on, by, on

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top of me, they were injured, they, they were not even dead yet. And there was all blooded and, but

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I made myself a s, place to, a spot to, to breath. And after they left I went down from the cemetery

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to the city down, eh, and it was on a hill, you know the cemetery of Izbica? And eh from the transport

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it was like a pogrom all kinds of clothing, so I, I, I put on an old dress and I washed myself on the,

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for I was blooded. And I came back I came back to the hiding place all my family was there. Because

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I went out from the hiding place to get water, because my, my mother got sick and my sisters gave her

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compresses with urine. So there was no water. I couldn’t, I couldn’t stand, I couldn’t eh, eh,

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this. So I went out to get water, the, so the Polish eh firemen caught me, they took me to the Gestapo

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and they took us out to the cemetery and they, they shot us. And they didn’t know what happened to

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me. I came back ten o’clock at night, back. I didn’t even tell them what happened, I didn’t want

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to, eh, my mother should know what happened to me, that I was shot. So it’s a, the experiences what

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I went through in Izbica during the war is indescribable and it’s, it’s, it’s impossible to de,

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to, to describe what, what happened in Izbica. So many people died from hunger, from, from, from s,

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from typhus and, and, eh, by, by executed, by shooting them.

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You were born in which year?

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Huh?

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In which year you were born?

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I was born eh, on, de, December 25, ’25.

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So you were fifteen when the war broke out?

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Yes, yes. So I was a teenager. So eh, coming to eh, I was working in Izbica s, Simcha was

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working in the hospital and he was like a, like a, the assistant of the doctor, he eh, had

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a pharmacist and, and eh, and they made me as a disinfector. To go around and dis

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He told me, he told me

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Yes?

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yes

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Dis, disinfect eh, the houses. With the, with the, with eh, with one, with one of the doctor’s son.

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Because after they, eh they took the people out to, to eh, to the, to Belzec and Sobibor. Belzec and

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Sobibor were, a, were approximately the same distance. Two deathcamps and the, and the location Izbica

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was very good for the Germans to transportation. You know, with the, with the railroad.

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Did you know

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Huh?

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what Belzec and Sobibor were when you were still in Izbica?

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We knew Belzec and Sobibor. We knew this is two deathcamps.

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You knew

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You know, most of the Jews, Polish Jews knew that the deathcamps, this is this is deathcamps. People

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from Holland, they didn’t know that’s a deathcamp, because, because, when I tell you I’m

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going to go into to, to, to Sobibor, I tell you the story about, about the beginning how they arrived

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everything. So eh so Izbica they came in 1943, Izbica became Juden, Judenrein.

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Yes

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In 1942. So, many Jews escaped to the woods in the winter they were frozen and f, f, frozen white,

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so they, they wanted to make, the, the Germans wanted to have it and they wanted to have them

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in one place. To made Judenstadt. But this was temporarily only. So with Judenstadt they made,

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was about few hundred people in Izbica left. And I and my brother and two sisters and a niece

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were still alive. My mother was shot and one sister, my father was, took, was taken to Sobibor

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and my, my, one of my sisters with a, with a little boy, also to, they took them to Sobibor. So

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we remained, part of the family was still alive. When the Warsaw ghetto uprising started they

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liquidated all the ghettos in Poland. And they came and they, they, they find us, we had a hiding

208
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place underground, in the factory from the, from the leather factory. And the German, the Polish

209
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people they knew that there is a lot of Jews here. That they went in with the, they went with

210
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the ears to listen, to the walls. You know? But with children, we didn’t have any air yet inside,

211
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so they find us and they took us out, the Germans, and they took us to the market place and they

212
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couldn’t make a transport with the trains, so then, so they had trucks. Trucks, and they put

213
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us on the trucks and they took us to, to Sobibor. And

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00:20:52,470 --> 00:20:52,470
Can we

215
00:20:52,470 --> 00:20:58,766
before we went to Sobibor, they stopped in Travnika. They were going to let us into,

216
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Trawnika, but the Trawnika did not accept us. So eh Travni, if I would have go to Trawnika,

217
00:21:05,586 --> 00:21:11,958
I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t be here today, because they killed 20,000 Jews right after

218
00:21:11,958 --> 00:21:16,830
the, after they escape. They, they, they executed 20,000 eh Jews.

219
00:21:16,830 --> 00:21:23,295
Can I, can I come back one moment to Izbica your life there before we go to Sobibor. Eh,

220
00:21:23,295 --> 00:21:29,540
what kind of life did you have, did, what kind of future did you expect for yourself?

221
00:21:29,540 --> 00:21:37,233
Izbica, like I mentioned, was a vibrant Jewish community. Izbica did not the most of the people,

222
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the Jewish people, most of them were poor. They didn’t have, they, they didn’t have any money

223
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to live. The, the most of they live from, eh, charities. Because there was no eh, there is no

224
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jobs, eh, most of them were Chassidic, you know, and eh, (?) a few people which, which managed

225
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to, to eh, didn’t got, (?) like mine, my, my parents, my father. He was a monetary, he was not

226
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that old, but he, but then I made, he tried to help other people to survive.

227
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What did he do?

228
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He was, like I mentioned, he had a leather factory.

229
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Yes, he was

230
00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:18,570
Yes

231
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the owner, yes

232
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Leather factory and eh, we managed a little better than the other people.

233
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We were not, we are not rich, but we were, we were, we, we were eh, we had

234
00:22:29,694 --> 00:22:34,210
a little better, be, better eh financial ex, better existence.

235
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Did you expect to study, eh, like Simcha?

236
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Well, I, most our, our children and my, my, most of the family when, when, when we, when we graduated

237
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eh public school, we went to big city, to a bigger city to Warsaw, to study and to get jobs. I was

238
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yet too young, I was very young. I didn’t even, I didn’t even finish the school, the public

239
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school and during the war my father made sure that I, that I get private lessons, which is in my

240
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book. Private lessons from a tutor. Eh, and eh and eh religious le, religious and and general lessons.

241
00:23:18,215 --> 00:23:26,468
You know? And he w, he was very concerned that you should have education. Education was my parent’s

242
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paramount. So as, eh, if the war wasn’t be broke out, I would have go probably to, to over, to,

243
00:23:34,395 --> 00:23:42,322
to Warsaw, so this is my, my sisters went to Warsaw already and she start to, to work and to, and

244
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to make money to go to, to continue to, to studies. So eh

245
00:23:46,980 --> 00:23:49,870
Did she remain in Warsaw eh

246
00:23:49,870 --> 00:23:57,912
He remained in Warsaw, my sister, eh, my, one of my sisters, Broncia, remained in Warsaw with my two

247
00:23:57,912 --> 00:24:06,035
brothers. Simcha and Jacob. I had two brothers, one brother died eh about three years ago in Israël.

248
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He, he escaped to Russia eh in 1939 and he came back from Russia, he was electrical engineer. And the

249
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reason that he survived, that he didn’t, he didn’t eh signed up to go back. To Poland. Many of

250
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:30,887
them were back to Po, signed to go back and they send them to Siberia. But he was working in a, astronomically

251
00:24:30,887 --> 00:24:39,091
institute in Moscow and when the, when the Germans got close to Moscow, they, they evacuated the, the,

252
00:24:39,091 --> 00:24:44,480
the institute to Jambo. To this is eh, Jambo I think is Kazakhstan.

253
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:45,100
Ja

254
00:24:45,100 --> 00:24:52,404
And he survived, and right eh after the war, he s, he sends a letter to the, to the, to the

255
00:24:52,404 --> 00:24:59,950
gmina, to the, to the, to the, to the City Hall in Izbica to find out if anybody is alive from

256
00:24:59,950 --> 00:25:07,254
my family. So we answered him and we were living in that time in Zamość. And he came, he,

257
00:25:07,254 --> 00:25:14,960
he got married, he came back to Zamość, we to the station, he wouldn’t recognize me. Because

258
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:20,660
when he left I was a little boy, now I were already grown up, you know.

259
00:25:20,660 --> 00:25:29,150
But you said he didn’t opt to go back, okay, that was in 1940, no, I try to understand

260
00:25:29,150 --> 00:25:29,150
19, 193

261
00:25:29,150 --> 00:25:29,850
the fast story

262
00:25:29,850 --> 00:25:35,310
1940, so he was there till 19, in Russia, till 1944. We were liberated in 1944

263
00:25:35,310 --> 00:25:35,600
Sure

264
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:44,750
by Ru, the Russians. And eh, so, coming back, now, to they, they took us to Sobibor, they stopped

265
00:25:44,750 --> 00:25:53,901
in Travnika, they would not accept us, we went to Sobibor, we, so we knew this is, I knew this is

266
00:25:53,901 --> 00:26:03,335
our last destination. This is a deathcamp. I came to Sobibor with my brother Simcha, two sisters and

267
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a niece. My brother Simcha grabbed my hand and he went over to the Gestapo, he said he’s a pharmacist

268
00:26:13,052 --> 00:26:22,203
and I’m his assistant. So they gave their approval and they stond, told us to wait in the side,

269
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with other trades people. They asked for professionals and trades people and there were among us.

270
00:26:31,353 --> 00:26:40,504
So eh we said goodbye to our sisters, to our niece, even my eight year old niece came over to hug

271
00:26:40,504 --> 00:26:50,032
me. She knew that, that she’s going to die. The next day a, a neighbor of our town told Simcha that

272
00:26:50,032 --> 00:26:59,183
he cut the hair of my, of my sis, our sister Broncia. And she asked him how long it will take the

273
00:26:59,183 --> 00:27:08,711
gas to kill us. He could not answer her because he was surrounded with the Germans, he could not talk

274
00:27:08,711 --> 00:27:18,334
to them and when he told and I find out, I, I was figuring how, how, how, how bad they felt, the agony

275
00:27:18,334 --> 00:27:27,673
they had to go through, you know, they knew they are going to die. But eh, I knew I came to Sobibor

276
00:27:27,673 --> 00:27:37,107
I knew that, that this is the last destination, I would not survive Sobibor. But in the same talking

277
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I was, I was a teenager and I wanted to live. So so mine, mine, my mind is maybe there would be a

278
00:27:46,258 --> 00:27:56,352
miracle, maybe I will survive and to be able to take revenge. You know? And eh, I was working on different,

279
00:27:56,352 --> 00:28:05,786
different jobs. I even was cutting the hair of woman from Holland and they asked me not to cut their

280
00:28:05,786 --> 00:28:09,560
hair too short. They still till the last

281
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:09,560
Terrible

282
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:09,560
ti, till

283
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:10,080
I can imagine

284
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:23,070
still to the last moment they did not realize that this is the end.

285
00:28:23,070 --> 00:28:23,450
But your nie, your sister knew?

286
00:28:23,450 --> 00:28:23,450
Huh?

287
00:28:23,450 --> 00:28:26,920
Your sister realized she was going to be killed?

288
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,210
My, my sister, sure, she, they, they knew it

289
00:28:28,210 --> 00:28:28,410
And

290
00:28:28,410 --> 00:28:34,923
but, but from Holland, from Holland, the transport came from Holland and eh I,

291
00:28:34,923 --> 00:28:41,270
I, I helped them with the baggage and they, they, and they offered me a tip.

292
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:42,150
That was you, yes?

293
00:28:42,150 --> 00:28:51,020
My heart was bleeding. I knew the truth. That in a half an hour they will be reduced to ashes.

294
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:52,980
Did you know it happened by gas?

295
00:28:52,980 --> 00:28:57,090
Did you know how they were killed?

296
00:28:57,090 --> 00:29:00,290
Yeah, they, I knew that they are going to be gassed, every

297
00:29:00,290 --> 00:29:00,290
You knew?

298
00:29:00,290 --> 00:29:07,315
every, every day was a transport they gassed and you, and you couldn’t see, they all,

299
00:29:07,315 --> 00:29:14,664
they, they from, from, from, from the burning eh eh from the bur, from the ashes, you know?

300
00:29:14,664 --> 00:29:21,689
It’s, it’s eh eh, it’s eh, I knew, but they did not realize till the last minute.

301
00:29:21,689 --> 00:29:29,119
When they told them to to leave their purses, they started maybe to have, realize something,

302
00:29:29,119 --> 00:29:36,225
something wrong, because they have their medicines, they have their, their, their money,

303
00:29:36,225 --> 00:29:42,039
their pictures, they didn’t, they did not, didn’t want to, to, to eh

304
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:42,290
Separate

305
00:29:42,290 --> 00:29:51,476
separate from them. So eh, they bea, were beating, there, they were beated them and they, they, they

306
00:29:51,476 --> 00:30:00,846
had to leave everything. Then they went to a courtyard and eh and one of the Gestapo personal officers

307
00:30:00,846 --> 00:30:10,032
gave a little lecture. In eh, in, like a, in a satanic way. He said they had them, I welcome you and

308
00:30:10,032 --> 00:30:19,218
eh I a, I apologize for the, for the g, inconvenience in travel, that you, that you, that you cannot

309
00:30:19,218 --> 00:30:28,772
go to the living quarters to relax right away. But because of the typhus you had, had to be disinfected.

310
00:30:28,772 --> 00:30:38,050
So, but before you undress, I strongly recommend that you send home postcards to your dear ones. That

311
00:30:38,050 --> 00:30:47,053
you are in a nice place, in a resettlement place. They were clapping and, and some of them eh they

312
00:30:47,053 --> 00:30:56,239
were, were screaming ‘bravo’! They did not realize till the last minute. And then when they went

313
00:30:56,239 --> 00:31:05,517
to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, way to the, to the third camp, the gas chambers, was a kiosk,

314
00:31:05,517 --> 00:31:14,887
they took watches and jewelry and they gave them fictitious number receipts, eh, that, that, when they

315
00:31:14,887 --> 00:31:24,258
returned they would get it back. So it was, they, they, they, they, they worked the examinations, they

316
00:31:24,258 --> 00:31:28,300
did it with precision, everything, you know.

317
00:31:28,300 --> 00:31:30,020
Yes, they did

318
00:31:30,020 --> 00:31:38,320
And eh, but I worked in different places, I worked  sorting, and many jewels, there was a big

319
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:46,710
safe, I had to throw everything to all the jewels. But 99% of the jewels I wanted to have, eh,

320
00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:55,368
I did not want to help the Nazi war machine. So 99% I throw into the toilets. Around every times,

321
00:31:55,368 --> 00:32:03,936
you throw in the toilet this, this gave me some satisfaction. I knew I’m not going to survive,

322
00:32:03,936 --> 00:32:10,720
at least I got satisfaction that I, this is like I sabotaged them. You know?

323
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:21,880
Simcha told me you stayed very close to him.

324
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:31,280
Yeah. We, we were very close. You know, Simcha, you know eh Simcha were a, when eh before the

325
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:40,681
uprising, a day before Simcha gave me a bottle of cyanide poison and a compass. In case I get

326
00:32:40,681 --> 00:32:49,981
injured on the on the, on the up, on the revolt, I should commit suicide because they buried

327
00:32:49,981 --> 00:32:59,281
people alive, if I survive the compass would show me how to go east. So, I’m dropping back

328
00:32:59,281 --> 00:33:07,570
and forth, but you are going to, you are going to eh eh edit it and everything (?)

329
00:33:07,570 --> 00:33:08,330
No, it’s wonderful what you are telling, it completely makes sense

330
00:33:08,330 --> 00:33:15,160
The, the uprising in Sobibor will go in, in the annals in history. It’s

331
00:33:15,580 --> 00:33:16,320
Would you

332
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:25,787
one of the most successful uprising in World War II. And Sobibor, we put Sobibor on the map. Nobody

333
00:33:25,787 --> 00:33:35,160
knew about Sobibor. Because Sobibor was a top secret camp. Surrounded by barbed wire, watch towers

334
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:44,627
with Ukrainian machine guns, though, this was the only camp which was mined all around. So Sobibor,

335
00:33:44,627 --> 00:33:53,713
there was no way anybody can go out of of Sobibor. But our aim was that maybe, maybe one person

336
00:33:53,713 --> 00:34:02,989
should get out from Sobibor and tell the world what happened here. Because Sobibor, we knew about

337
00:34:02,989 --> 00:34:09,780
Belzec, Treblinka, Dachau, Buchenwald, Majdanek, Sobibor was not known.

338
00:34:09,780 --> 00:34:10,170
I know

339
00:34:10,170 --> 00:34:16,100
And Sobibor was the most secretive camp. So

340
00:34:16,290 --> 00:34:23,740
When you say you, you cut hairs, if I may interrupt you, have you ever been in camp III? In where?

341
00:34:23,740 --> 00:34:24,540
In camp III?

342
00:34:24,540 --> 00:34:27,230
No, I was not, I was very close to camp III.

343
00:34:27,230 --> 00:34:28,430
But you never were in

344
00:34:28,430 --> 00:34:31,139
If I would go too close I couldn’t go back. You know. We were in camp II and

345
00:34:31,139 --> 00:34:33,780
I. So we couldn’t, we, we, we, we didn’t have any contact with camp III.

346
00:34:33,780 --> 00:34:37,510
Camp III was the gas chambers?

347
00:34:37,510 --> 00:34:45,533
Camp III was the deathcamp and we, when I cut the hair, I was only maybe ten, fifteen feet away

348
00:34:45,533 --> 00:34:53,050
from the, from the, eh, from the, from the go, to the gas chambers and to the third camp.

349
00:34:53,050 --> 00:34:58,550
Did you have to work very hard? Or was it soso

350
00:34:58,550 --> 00:35:06,210
I worked very hard and, and, and, and, and eh, and the, I was beating, I was whipped.

351
00:35:06,210 --> 00:35:06,670
You were

352
00:35:06,670 --> 00:35:14,548
Yes eh from, from Frenzel and eh I eh, and Wagner, there is a lot of stories about Wagner, about

353
00:35:14,548 --> 00:35:22,673
Frenzel that’s, which is, it’s very eh difficult to go through the experiences because if I eh,

354
00:35:22,673 --> 00:35:30,551
once a transport came from the Białystok area and the transport was eh, on the way for two, two

355
00:35:30,551 --> 00:35:38,840
weeks maybe and it was on a Sunday and they took me with another young boys to help unload the train.

356
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:46,801
And then I opened the door, and I saw the scenery, I, I couldn’t, I couldn’t eh, I couldn’t

357
00:35:46,801 --> 00:35:54,925
go through this things. People were weighing eh maybe a few hundred, tones, falling out decomposed,

358
00:35:54,925 --> 00:36:03,378
bodies, babies are weighting maybe a hundred pounds and when, when they told us to take out the bodies,

359
00:36:03,378 --> 00:36:11,667
when I started to grab a woman, to, to pull out the, the, the skin remained in my hands. So I decided

360
00:36:11,667 --> 00:36:19,874
I, I lay down on the floor, I figured I’m, I’m going to die here anyway, why should I go through

361
00:36:19,874 --> 00:36:27,999
those, those terrible experiences, I wanted to be shot. Frenzel came over, I testified in court in,

362
00:36:27,999 --> 00:36:36,041
in Hagen, about this episode. He came over, he beat me up, he told me to back to work. And he made

363
00:36:36,041 --> 00:36:44,248
a picture and he said what a wonderful Bild this is. And that woman with the baby was laying on her,

364
00:36:44,248 --> 00:36:52,291
w, on, on, on her tum. It’s eh, I still have nightmares about that episode. So eh this is one of

365
00:36:52,291 --> 00:37:00,333
the episodes to go through with Sobibor what I went through, but I wanted to live, maybe will take

366
00:37:00,333 --> 00:37:02,959
the revenge, if we do something.

367
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:11,010
Can I ask you another question? When your brother decided to go to Russia, eh, in ’39 or in ‘40

368
00:37:11,010 --> 00:37:11,010
Yes?

369
00:37:11,190 --> 00:37:15,960
did you have a chance to make that kind of decision, or you didn’t consider to go east

370
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:15,960
Me?

371
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:15,960
yes

372
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:15,960
I was too young.

373
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:16,340
Okay.

374
00:37:16,340 --> 00:37:23,255
I was too young, I was a young boy, I was going to school. If I was a year older, like eh, then,

375
00:37:23,255 --> 00:37:29,883
I would go to Warsaw too, like all my family. Most often the people that got the, after they

376
00:37:29,883 --> 00:37:36,799
finished public school, they went to study in Warsaw and to, to, but eh, but I, I was too young.

377
00:37:36,799 --> 00:37:42,130
And one of my sisters was too young. One sister went already. Two brothers

378
00:37:42,130 --> 00:37:43,560
To Warsaw?

379
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:43,960
one sister

380
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:44,150
But

381
00:37:44,150 --> 00:37:48,947
two, two brothers, one sister were already in Warsaw. But I’m, was still with one of

382
00:37:48,947 --> 00:37:53,690
my sisters, was still in, in, du, eh, during the war, we were still in, in eh Izbica.

383
00:37:53,690 --> 00:37:56,660
No, but I’m talking about your brother who went east.

384
00:37:56,660 --> 00:38:02,540
My brother was in, eh, in, he went to Warsaw too and he, he became electric engineer.

385
00:38:02,540 --> 00:38:06,060
Yes, but he also went to the Soviet Union, didn’t he?

386
00:38:06,060 --> 00:38:10,834
He went to the, this brother, Jacob, he went to the Sovjet Union.

387
00:38:10,834 --> 00:38:14,580
This is, only, the, two brothers, Simcha and Jacob.

388
00:38:14,580 --> 00:38:14,580
Yes, sure

389
00:38:14,580 --> 00:38:22,264
This brother went to, to Russia and I remained with Simcha with the two sisters, in Izbica. So eh

390
00:38:22,264 --> 00:38:30,345
then they came to Izbica from Warsaw, they ca, when, when the war ended, 1939 for, they came to Izbica

391
00:38:30,345 --> 00:38:37,079
and we were together. So Simcha started to work in the hospital, in the medical field

392
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:47,642
Mine, family was not eh, we are not only were eh, were eh worked in the, in the, in, in the leather,

393
00:38:47,642 --> 00:38:58,311
leather producing. We also baked matzes from generation to generation. And eh not for mo, make money,

394
00:38:58,311 --> 00:39:08,451
but for the community. Whoever could afford, whoever couldn’t afford, he didn’t pay nothing.

395
00:39:08,451 --> 00:39:18,909
And eh I, and eh, I, when I was a little boy, my first job by the matzes, my mother used, my mother

396
00:39:18,909 --> 00:39:26,620
picked ten, twenty girls, beautiful girls to eh, to roll the, the matzes.

397
00:39:26,620 --> 00:39:27,120
Yes

398
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:27,120
Yes

399
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:28,880
it’s a lot of work

400
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:35,023
Twenty girls, and my job, my, as a young boy, my job was,

401
00:39:35,023 --> 00:39:40,090
the first job was to to measure the, the flour.

402
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,850
Wait a second. It was your job to, to m (?)

403
00:39:43,850 --> 00:39:49,608
My first job was to measure the flour and to put it to

404
00:39:49,608 --> 00:39:54,940
one lady and then she made eh the dough, you know?

405
00:39:54,940 --> 00:39:54,940
Yeah

406
00:39:54,940 --> 00:39:57,980
a girl, for, for twenty, for twenty eh girls, to, to, eh

407
00:39:57,980 --> 00:39:59,510
To cut it

408
00:39:59,510 --> 00:40:06,261
yes, eh, my, then after a, after a, after a while I eh, the, the next year I advanced,

409
00:40:06,261 --> 00:40:12,463
I put water to the, to, to, she made I put water in. This was eh, and the third

410
00:40:12,463 --> 00:40:17,410
job was one, to make holes, holes to the, the matzes, you know?

411
00:40:17,410 --> 00:40:20,990
You know, one of my very early memories is

412
00:40:20,990 --> 00:40:27,130
Yes and my fourth, my fourth job, my aim was the, the, to have a biggest, the biggest honour.

413
00:40:27,130 --> 00:40:27,320
[laughs[

414
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,000
the accomplishment I should put the matzes in to the oven.

415
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:31,440
SpSL [laughs]

416
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:36,140
But I could not, the war broke out and I did not accomplish this.

417
00:40:36,140 --> 00:40:36,140
[laughs]

418
00:40:36,140 --> 00:40:41,470
You know? With my aim, you know? So this was the matzes.

419
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,350
My first, one of my earliest

420
00:40:43,350 --> 00:40:44,100
Ma, matze, matze maker

421
00:40:44,100 --> 00:40:44,250
memories

422
00:40:44,250 --> 00:40:51,185
then in our house also we had a big oven, so, from most of the city people came

423
00:40:51,185 --> 00:40:57,770
to put in the oven, the Cholent, the Cholent for the, for the, for Shabbat.

424
00:40:59,680 --> 00:40:59,800
Sure.

425
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:05,198
And, and when they came back from the, from the services, from the Shul,

426
00:41:05,198 --> 00:41:10,596
they picked up the, the Cholent. You know? And eh, so it’s eh, this is

427
00:41:10,596 --> 00:41:15,320
memories, historical memories, what happened eh before the war.

428
00:41:15,500 --> 00:41:23,210
Did it, did it happen because you had a big fire in the, in the factory, because eh, I can imagine

429
00:41:23,210 --> 00:41:27,800
No, we, we made, the special, the, was a big oven and we, we made the

430
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:28,770
You make it specially

431
00:41:28,770 --> 00:41:35,400
we made, we made it specially, we, we, we, we heated up the oven, it should be hot

432
00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:35,880
Ja?

433
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:41,579
and then the flavor was going around with every time we put in and, and, and they,

434
00:41:41,579 --> 00:41:47,417
and put the matzes in. And, and eh, and to each, the first, the first matzes we made

435
00:41:47,417 --> 00:41:52,699
for more, eh the first oven was for more prestigious for prestigious people.

436
00:41:52,700 --> 00:41:53,170
Ja?

437
00:41:53,170 --> 00:42:00,288
For the matzes, you know. This is the first, the first oven. The first, the first eh, and then we had

438
00:42:00,288 --> 00:42:07,759
a, eh, eh, in, in a, a big sheet with, with the, with, with, with a big thing and two people were carrying

439
00:42:07,759 --> 00:42:13,610
the matzes home. You know? This was the, this was the old fashioned transportation.

440
00:42:13,610 --> 00:42:13,610
Sure

441
00:42:13,610 --> 00:42:13,610
Yes. Yes?

442
00:42:13,610 --> 00:42:13,610
Fantastic

443
00:42:13,610 --> 00:42:21,277
You, you know what I mean, it’s eh, it’s, it’s like a big sheet and the matzes,

444
00:42:21,277 --> 00:42:28,675
they put in the matzes inside and with, with a big eh and two people were carrying

445
00:42:28,675 --> 00:42:35,080
the matzes home. Every, every, every hour, every two hours was a, was a

446
00:42:35,230 --> 00:42:35,490
A new load

447
00:42:35,490 --> 00:42:43,432
Yes. And, and, and, and the war, the, we didn’t have any, any eh new, a new system how to get water,

448
00:42:43,432 --> 00:42:51,140
so the water had to go from, we had to get from the wells. So we were carrying water from, from the

449
00:42:51,140 --> 00:42:58,771
well, from the wells with, with two, with two pails you know, like getting the water to the, to be

450
00:42:58,771 --> 00:43:06,401
able to, to, to, to make the, the, the matzes. Before the, before the, a day before the Pesach the

451
00:43:06,401 --> 00:43:14,187
rabbi came with a, with a group of Chassidic people in to eh check the kosher that eh we, everything

452
00:43:14,187 --> 00:43:22,052
should be eh, should be, everything should be in order. Everything should be eh made properly. It’s

453
00:43:22,052 --> 00:43:29,682
like eh, it’s like eh, an commission, you know, like a, like a eh health department, came to, to

454
00:43:29,682 --> 00:43:37,391
see if everything is okay. I remember a thing, I remember an episode that my mother once opened my,

455
00:43:37,391 --> 00:43:45,099
it is in my book, and my mother opened one chicken and she saw something, something is wrong, they,

456
00:43:45,099 --> 00:43:52,730
they had an ulcer there some place in the chicken, in the chicken. So she took, she send me to the

457
00:43:52,730 --> 00:44:00,827
rabbi to check it out. The rabbi was like a doctor. I came to the rabbi, he took the chicken and fifteen

458
00:44:00,827 --> 00:44:08,536
minutes he examined it like, like, like, like, like an internist. And after fifteen minutes he came

459
00:44:08,536 --> 00:44:16,478
over, he say, he took my chick, Fishele like this, go home, tell your mother she can cook the chicken.

460
00:44:16,478 --> 00:44:24,108
So this is a, little stories, you know, which eh, which is very, very important. That’s why that

461
00:44:24,108 --> 00:44:32,050
professor in Warsaw, he was telling the students, you know, about the, historical things, small little

462
00:44:32,050 --> 00:44:39,759
things, they don’t, the young people they don’t know eh, all those things, you know. So this is

463
00:44:39,759 --> 00:44:47,389
a, and eh so this was eh, also in, in our house eh, eh, bypassing rabbi’s when they went to city

464
00:44:47,389 --> 00:44:55,409
to city, they stayed in our house. You know? And eh and eh we discussed the future, we know the Germans

465
00:44:55,409 --> 00:44:58,680
already, we heard on the radio what’s eh

466
00:44:58,680 --> 00:44:58,970
You knew

467
00:44:58,970 --> 00:45:07,591
Hit, Hitler, what he speaks about the, the Kristallnacht and this, and we talked to the rabbi he, the

468
00:45:07,591 --> 00:45:16,213
rabbi said that we, we will have miracles like, like from Egypt. They would, will take us out and we,

469
00:45:16,213 --> 00:45:25,005
we sur, we survive. I couldn’t, I couldn’t eh I couldn’t eh I couldn’t say to the rabbi because

470
00:45:25,005 --> 00:45:33,712
he was a rabbi and I - young boy, I knew eh, not by miracles, I know that they are miracles, there are

471
00:45:33,712 --> 00:45:42,761
not going to come miracles, miracles you heard, you heard about Korah in Israël, we had Samson eh [?Delaj

472
00:45:42,761 --> 00:45:51,468
Samson, you have big people, they didn’t wait till till, for they, they took their own eh, their own

473
00:45:51,468 --> 00:45:59,919
eh, their hands, their own future of the hands. Like the Maccabees, you know? So I, I couldn’t eh

474
00:45:59,919 --> 00:46:08,626
go against the rabbi to (?), he was but, but he he said we will, we will see, we survived, we survived

475
00:46:08,626 --> 00:46:14,259
on the, the Egypts and we survive now too, it should be a miracle.

476
00:46:14,260 --> 00:46:19,380
Did you know about the Warsaw uprising?

477
00:46:19,380 --> 00:46:22,090
No the Warsaw uprising

478
00:46:22,230 --> 00:46:22,630
The ghetto

479
00:46:22,630 --> 00:46:22,630
when they

480
00:46:22,630 --> 00:46:23,090
I’m talking

481
00:46:23,090 --> 00:46:29,280
they, they took, when the Warsaw uprising took place, we knew and the, the

482
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:29,440
How?

483
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:34,870
they liquidated, I mentioned, the, then they liquidated all the ghetto’s

484
00:46:34,870 --> 00:46:37,250
Yes, sure, but how did you continue?

485
00:46:37,250 --> 00:46:41,380
The, our, our eh, uprising in Sobibor, eh, was eh second in scope after the Warsaw ghetto

486
00:46:41,380 --> 00:46:41,580
Yes

487
00:46:41,580 --> 00:46:41,730
Sobibor

488
00:46:41,730 --> 00:46:42,680
Yes but

489
00:46:42,810 --> 00:46:45,250
they come from the camps. You know?

490
00:46:45,250 --> 00:46:45,580
Yes, I know

491
00:46:45,580 --> 00:46:45,580
Se

492
00:46:45,580 --> 00:46:46,150
I know

493
00:46:46,150 --> 00:46:46,990
second in scope

494
00:46:46,990 --> 00:46:51,720
But I was wondering how did you know about the Warsaw uprising?

495
00:46:51,720 --> 00:46:53,350
We heard people, Polish people told us.

496
00:46:53,350 --> 00:46:53,350
Aha

497
00:46:53,350 --> 00:46:55,520
You know, we, we, we, we had

498
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:57,710
They came through Izbica

499
00:46:57,710 --> 00:47:04,580
Yes, because people, some eh, one policeman told my brother, you know. We knew, we knew.

500
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:10,460
When did you see the Germans coming? Did you see, can you remember when you saw them the first time?

501
00:47:10,460 --> 00:47:17,531
The Germans came, they were marching in 1939 they went into Izbica, they were marching, they

502
00:47:17,531 --> 00:47:24,450
were singing, German military songs, nicely dressed up, I was I was shaking, you know, and

503
00:47:24,450 --> 00:47:26,660
You were in the street?

504
00:47:26,660 --> 00:47:26,880
Huh?

505
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:27,760
You were in the street?

506
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:32,354
Yes, in the beginning, in the beginning here you know, they didn’t eh, right

507
00:47:32,354 --> 00:47:36,948
away they didn’t make eh the, the prosecution right away, they took a little

508
00:47:36,948 --> 00:47:41,130
while. Till they cut my, my, my, my, my father’s beard, they cut off.

509
00:47:41,130 --> 00:47:42,200
They did?

510
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:51,466
They cut off my father’s beard, he came, he came home one day without a beard. You know. He said

511
00:47:51,466 --> 00:48:00,732
they caught him in, in the street and then they cut the h, the Wehrmacht. They, they cut his beard

512
00:48:00,732 --> 00:48:10,283
and many other eh Chassidish people from Izbica. So eh, it started little by little till ti, till the

513
00:48:10,283 --> 00:48:19,927
till the, they, they started to, really to send the people to the extermination camps. But eh Sobibor,

514
00:48:19,927 --> 00:48:29,477
the uprising in Sobibor, this is very important. The uprising in Sobibor wa, wa, the architect of the

515
00:48:29,477 --> 00:48:38,839
uprising was Leon Feldhendler. He, he made a plan. With the, he made a plan with precision. But and

516
00:48:38,839 --> 00:48:48,200
I was with, with my brother, Simcha, we were in the forty organizers. And eh I had to swear, swear,

517
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:57,655
my brother took me in, I had to swear that I would not re, I would not reveal eh secrets, because we

518
00:48:57,655 --> 00:49:07,205
were afraid only, eh, other, they shouldn’t come, they shouldn’t find out. I, I had to swear that

519
00:49:07,205 --> 00:49:16,566
I will keep my secret, (?) But we didn’t have any military knowhow, how to execute the plan. So a

520
00:49:16,566 --> 00:49:25,927
miracle came, that a transport came and this transport had many Russian Jewish POW’s. And they eh

521
00:49:25,927 --> 00:49:35,478
took out eighty people to help us to help us with the, with the work on the, on the trans, transports

522
00:49:35,478 --> 00:49:45,028
in the, in, in, in the camp. So this was a this, this was a fatal mistake from the Germans. We needed

523
00:49:45,028 --> 00:49:54,389
we needed people with eh, with military experience. Because we were Jews, we never fought, we never

524
00:49:54,389 --> 00:50:04,412
had any weapons in our hands. And this is the people, they will help us in the revolt. So Leon Feldhendler

525
00:50:04,412 --> 00:50:13,962
got in contact with with a, with one of the, the lieutenant, Sasha Pechersky and he was eh, he became

526
00:50:13,962 --> 00:50:23,323
the military leader of the camp, because he had his own group of people and there was three, three,

527
00:50:23,323 --> 00:50:33,346
three people to, to a group and eh, and I was assigned to be a messenger. One of the other few messengers,

528
00:50:33,346 --> 00:50:42,801
I was a messenger that had to call in, call in the Germans to the, to the places that they find some

529
00:50:42,801 --> 00:50:52,352
nice leather coats, boots that they should come to try it on. When they came in with axes and knifes,

530
00:50:52,352 --> 00:51:01,713
we killed them and we took away their weapons. One was a Germans Wolf, when, when he went in to try

531
00:51:01,713 --> 00:51:11,263
on and I was outside, I was waiting a few minutes, I wanted to see the results, what happened. I went

532
00:51:11,263 --> 00:51:20,624
in to that eh warehouse, I saw, I saw Wolf laying on the floor, all blood around and my brother and

533
00:51:20,624 --> 00:51:29,890
eh one of the, one of the Russian POW’s were dragging him in to hide him in between the clothes.

534
00:51:29,890 --> 00:51:38,779
I felt, I was shocking, I, I felt eh satisfaction and I said to myself this is for my family.-

535
00:51:38,590 --> 00:51:39,340
Sure.

536
00:51:39,340 --> 00:51:49,814
This is for the 250,000 of our brothers and sisters who perished in Sobibor. At least whatever will

537
00:51:49,814 --> 00:52:00,924
happen, at least I had the satisfaction that we took revenge. And we we were, we, we, we cut electricity,

538
00:52:00,924 --> 00:52:11,504
telephone so they shouldn’t have, the German shouldn’t have any communications with eh, with the

539
00:52:11,504 --> 00:52:22,296
garrison in Lublin. So eh, so we, we killed eleven in the same way. We killed eleven Germans and a few

540
00:52:22,296 --> 00:52:31,290
Ukrainian, Ukrainian. And we came, we, we, we got together in the appeal together and

541
00:52:31,290 --> 00:52:31,810
Appelplatz, yes

542
00:52:31,810 --> 00:52:43,703
op appel, and eh most of them don’t know yet what happened. You know, only, only the, the, the conspirators

543
00:52:43,703 --> 00:52:54,397
knew about what, what’s going on. So Sasha and Leon went on the table and they made a statement.

544
00:52:54,397 --> 00:53:05,527
They said brothers, our destiny has come. Let us rise and destroy this place. We have nothing to lose.

545
00:53:05,527 --> 00:53:16,766
At least we will fight with honor. It’s better to die by bullet than die by, by gas. But, if somebody

546
00:53:16,766 --> 00:53:27,569
should survive bare witness and tell the world what happened here. So, we started to run to the, to

547
00:53:27,569 --> 00:53:34,880
the barbed wire my finger, I still have the scar, my finger was cut

548
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:34,880
I see

549
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:42,478
I still have the scar and, what he killed, we had to, we had to, after the barbed wires, we had

550
00:53:42,478 --> 00:53:50,556
to go through the mine fields. So and the, the mine field started to explode, it’s like Stalingrad.

551
00:53:50,556 --> 00:53:57,995
So it came to my mind maybe I should run in the direction where they have their, where the SS

552
00:53:57,995 --> 00:54:05,433
has their, their building erected. Their living quarters. I figured they are not going to put

553
00:54:05,433 --> 00:54:13,112
the mines near their buildings. So I was running in that di, and I think this was, this was mine

554
00:54:13,112 --> 00:54:20,710
eh luck, and my brother probably also was the same direction. And we went and we, and I eh, and

555
00:54:20,710 --> 00:54:25,669
I ran out in the woods and I met with, met up with my brother.

556
00:54:26,150 --> 00:54:26,540
By accident?

557
00:54:26,540 --> 00:54:26,650
So h

558
00:54:26,650 --> 00:54:28,500
Did you agree where to meet eh

559
00:54:28,500 --> 00:54:36,768
I had, no, I, by accident, I am eh, it was also a miracle. By accident eh I find my brother in the

560
00:54:36,768 --> 00:54:44,952
woods. So eh hundred and sixty eh was killed during the uprising, you know, the hundred and forty

561
00:54:44,952 --> 00:54:53,558
were executed later and three hundred escaped. But from the three hundred who escaped only forty eight

562
00:54:53,558 --> 00:55:00,730
survived. Because of the circumstances on the Polish countryside. You know the story.

563
00:55:00,730 --> 00:55:01,720
Let me

564
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:06,810
Now we only eight survivors left. But eight.

565
00:55:06,810 --> 00:55:07,400
No, eleven. Eleven.

566
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:16,637
Eleven? So eh, now I am only one of the few, few survivors left and, and I promised eh Sasha Pechersky

567
00:55:16,637 --> 00:55:25,603
that I will, I will eh tell the story with the, what he said in the last minute. If somebody should

568
00:55:25,603 --> 00:55:34,569
survive, bear witness. Here I am Sasha, a living witness to both the horror and triumph of history.

569
00:55:34,569 --> 00:55:44,078
And as long as I have breath in my longs I will continue to go around all over the world, to the museums,

570
00:55:44,078 --> 00:55:50,780
to schools, to churches and to tell the inspirational story about Sobibor.

571
00:55:50,780 --> 00:55:51,760
And right you are!

572
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:51,760
Huh?

573
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:52,020
You are very right.

574
00:55:52,020 --> 00:55:52,630
Yes, okay.

575
00:55:52,630 --> 00:56:01,610
Congratulations, you are very right! I want to ask you a question, Sasha, Simcha

576
00:56:01,610 --> 00:56:01,610
Yes

577
00:56:01,610 --> 00:56:06,000
told me that they tried to poison

578
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:06,470
Oh, this is

579
00:56:06,470 --> 00:56:06,470
the SS; do you have

580
00:56:06,470 --> 00:56:06,710
This, this story

581
00:56:06,710 --> 00:56:06,950
the story, because

582
00:56:06,950 --> 00:56:07,110
in the book.

583
00:56:07,110 --> 00:56:07,110
he, he couldn’t get it very clear.

584
00:56:07,110 --> 00:56:16,960
The story is in the book. The story is that eh, that he was working the pharmacy

585
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:26,318
and he prepared poison for that eh, for somebody was working in the kitchen,

586
00:56:26,318 --> 00:56:33,829
to poison the the SS and also the, the Ukrainian kitchen too.

587
00:56:33,830 --> 00:56:34,440
Aha

588
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:43,575
and eh there was one, yes, he Wagner came in and, when they find out no, this was, then, then then one

589
00:56:43,575 --> 00:56:52,531
girl was working in, in the kitchen, by the Ukrainian kitchen, and there was one Ukrainian which, he

590
00:56:52,531 --> 00:57:01,487
was eh he was very more liberal. And she wanted to save his life. She told him not to come in to eat

591
00:57:01,487 --> 00:57:10,444
it today. Yes. And he, he gave, he, he gave out the whole secret and they came to Simcha in the, in,

592
00:57:10,444 --> 00:57:19,400
in the pharmacy there and the Wagner and they beat him up, he ask him if he gave the poison. He said

593
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:28,714
he didn’t and every things he said is, is numbered, numbered, every things is, they hold, every things

594
00:57:28,714 --> 00:57:37,760
he has to be is signed out, it couldn’t be from here. Only, it could be only from, from, from, the,

595
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:46,985
from the baggage, somebody took it out. But then, eh, it was very, some miracle that the, the, the, the

596
00:57:46,985 --> 00:57:56,121
supervisor came in and he saw what’s going on with Wagner so he was afraid maybe that, that if this,

597
00:57:56,121 --> 00:58:02,480
if, if Simcha did it, then, then he would be responsible too, you know?

598
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:02,760
Sure, sure, sure

599
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:10,499
He is a supervisor. So he protected Simcha, he said, he said it couldn’t be from here.

600
00:58:10,499 --> 00:58:18,239
Every milligram of poison is being registered, every things is here (?) it couldn’t be

601
00:58:18,239 --> 00:58:26,243
from here. And, and this manager, the Gestapo helped, helped Simcha not to be executed from

602
00:58:26,243 --> 00:58:32,840
Wagner. So this was the story is more of a, is more eh, (?) in my book. (?)

603
00:58:34,620 --> 00:58:35,690
Whom did they execute?

604
00:58:35,690 --> 00:58:35,690
Huh?

605
00:58:35,690 --> 00:58:37,230
Did they exe, execute others for this (?)

606
00:58:37,230 --> 00:58:42,338
They, they executed the, the, the, the over there the girl and the, and

607
00:58:42,338 --> 00:58:47,231
the eh, eh, the, there was, the people who work in the kitchen. Yes.

608
00:58:47,231 --> 00:58:51,620
So this was eh episode also that’s very important you know.

609
00:58:51,620 --> 00:58:55,967
Can you tell me about the meetings you had with the

610
00:58:55,967 --> 00:59:00,230
group of forty men preparing the uprising? Did you

611
00:59:00,230 --> 00:59:00,420
Well in the group we

612
00:59:00,420 --> 00:59:00,420
meet often?

613
00:59:00,420 --> 00:59:06,349
we had, we had eh, we had eh meetings every couple of days. We had

614
00:59:06,349 --> 00:59:11,830
meetings and we had to have the meetings in secret. You know?

615
00:59:11,830 --> 00:59:12,380
Sure.

616
00:59:12,380 --> 00:59:21,008
And we, we were eh how, eh, Feldhendler were, were outlined, outlined how the how the, the uprising

617
00:59:21,008 --> 00:59:29,462
should take place. And we had eh all input, we asked questions was, about who was, like you have,

618
00:59:29,462 --> 00:59:37,829
how to be, how, how, how we should eh, enq, enq, acquire the knifes, axes, you know? So that one

619
00:59:37,829 --> 00:59:46,109
eh the Schmeissner, you know Schmeissner from, from eh Brazil, he was working in the, in, in a,

620
00:59:46,109 --> 00:59:54,999
in the magazines eh, they, where he make the jewelry at machines in the eve, was preparing the knifes.

621
00:59:54,999 --> 01:00:03,628
Axes. You saw in the movie, you know, what it is. It is in Escape from Sobibor, it is in the movie.

622
01:00:03,628 --> 01:00:11,908
So we, eh, eh, how we should hide the things to bring it in under the, under the eh, under, and

623
01:00:11,908 --> 01:00:20,449
under, under the underwear, to bring it into hide, the, all the, eh, the weapons, axes and knifes.

624
01:00:20,449 --> 01:00:28,729
And eh we had eh, the, the plan was how we should call in the assignment, the assignment, that,

625
01:00:28,729 --> 01:00:37,270
who I should call in to try on, and the other guy had to, the other fellow’s address to, to, to,

626
01:00:37,270 --> 01:00:41,890
eh, to eh, to bring in the s Germans to those places.

627
01:00:41,890 --> 01:00:46,030
Had you any idea what you would do after the uprising?

628
01:00:46,030 --> 01:00:52,420
Oh, this is a very good question. I was eh interviewed by the eh Entertainment Tonight, you know

629
01:00:52,420 --> 01:00:52,420
Yes

630
01:00:52,420 --> 01:00:58,880
it’s a show entertainment, you know the show

631
01:00:58,880 --> 01:00:59,030
Yes

632
01:00:59,030 --> 01:01:08,362
Entertainment Tonight and, and this eh journalist asked me, Philip how did you manage to survive

633
01:01:08,362 --> 01:01:17,791
after the war. After the uprising. So I said it’s a very good question, this was not the end of

634
01:01:17,791 --> 01:01:27,026
my journey. I still had to struggle another year. Till I got liberated by the Germans. I was in

635
01:01:27,026 --> 01:01:37,233
het Partizans and I was hiding with a, with a Catholic Jewish family, their name Mazurek. They sacrificed

636
01:01:37,233 --> 01:01:46,565
their life to keep me and my brother hidden in a barn in the farm. And after the war I made them

637
01:01:46,565 --> 01:01:56,092
Yad Vashem. I made them the medals. And eh I go every year there I go to the, the father is eh not

638
01:01:56,092 --> 01:02:05,521
alive and then I go to the cemetery, bring flowers and I pay respect, they, they really there was

639
01:02:05,521 --> 01:02:11,840
not too many, but whoever did it they was like a heroism. Because

640
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:12,110
But

641
01:02:12,110 --> 01:02:13,130
they could be killed.

642
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:19,710
let us, let us go step by step. You went to the woods, you met your brother.

643
01:02:19,710 --> 01:02:22,784
We went, I went to the woods with the, I met my brother,

644
01:02:22,784 --> 01:02:25,420
he went with the, we joined a Partizans, but the

645
01:02:25,420 --> 01:02:25,420
How did you, how did

646
01:02:25,420 --> 01:02:25,420
Parti

647
01:02:25,420 --> 01:02:25,910
you meet them?

648
01:02:25,910 --> 01:02:33,219
Partizan, we met the Partizans and we joined them, but we had to escape because we were in danger

649
01:02:33,219 --> 01:02:40,379
with the Partizans. Because they were more, they didn’t, they didn’t eh, they, they, we are

650
01:02:40,379 --> 01:02:47,689
afraid they are going to kill us. Because we are Jews, you know? So we escaped from the Partizans

651
01:02:47,689 --> 01:02:54,170
and we were going to eh, to our eh area and we find a place to hide on that eh family.

652
01:02:54,170 --> 01:02:54,810
But can you

653
01:02:54,810 --> 01:03:03,325
And after the war, after the war, you know, the first, the first day I came out on the the first

654
01:03:03,325 --> 01:03:11,574
day I came out eh on the street with my friend, the, the sun was eh shining, a policeman came

655
01:03:11,574 --> 01:03:19,735
over, he said, he asked for the documents Polish policeman. I explained him in Polish, eh, I

656
01:03:19,735 --> 01:03:27,806
said we, we don’t have any documents, you know, we are Jews. We just eh, we are liberated

657
01:03:27,806 --> 01:03:35,878
now. He took us to the, to the police station, undercover?] there where the NKWD, where the

658
01:03:35,878 --> 01:03:44,571
old eh, the secret police, and he told them that we are spies. And they throw us into the basement

659
01:03:44,571 --> 01:03:52,731
with all the criminals. I thought when I be liberated they’ll take me on a, on a wagon and

660
01:03:52,731 --> 01:03:58,320
they to, take me city to city, here is a survivor from Sobibor.

661
01:03:58,320 --> 01:03:58,320
[laughs]

662
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:06,075
Here, here are the, here I am laying in the, eh, eh, as a criminal in the, the, in the basement

663
01:04:06,075 --> 01:04:13,993
with eh, eh, in jail. You know? This was one of mine eh first first experience after the war. You

664
01:04:13,993 --> 01:04:21,667
know. And we were, we were, we had a group op people eh concentrated in a, in a Peretza house,

665
01:04:21,667 --> 01:04:28,770
Peretza house, they’re, they’re like the Peretza [a writer: I.L. Peretz], you know.

666
01:04:28,770 --> 01:04:28,860
Hmhm

667
01:04:28,860 --> 01:04:37,304
Everybody is telling their experiences how they went through eh at night, the Polaks passed

668
01:04:37,304 --> 01:04:45,656
by, they throw in a grenade. The grenade would go inside, we would be all killed, but only

669
01:04:45,656 --> 01:04:53,915
pieces went in, a woman got injured. So we were, we, we, we, we, we were, we were not, we

670
01:04:53,915 --> 01:05:00,690
were not eh, eh after the war already we, we were in danger to be killed.

671
01:05:00,690 --> 01:05:01,760
How did you get out of the prison?

672
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:03,090
The, what?

673
01:05:03,090 --> 01:05:05,720
How did you get out of the prison?

674
01:05:05,900 --> 01:05:11,913
Oh, the prison, mine eh, mine mine eh, somebody went to Lublin to the government and they told

675
01:05:11,913 --> 01:05:17,480
the whole story, you know, and they, they got and they took, they let us out. You know.

676
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:17,480
Okay.

677
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:25,956
And I escaped and I went to eh I went to eh, to Lublin, the, the, the, the, the Russian told us, in,

678
01:05:25,956 --> 01:05:34,856
eh, eh, that we should concentrate in the big cities. You know. So we all be more safe in the big cities.

679
01:05:34,856 --> 01:05:43,247
But I didn’t eh I didn’t want to stay in Poland so when, it was 19 already, 1945, the beginning

680
01:05:43,247 --> 01:05:51,639
so, and so we, I went to Germany. To Berlin. It was eh, eh, DP camp. Schlachtensee. The name of the

681
01:05:51,639 --> 01:06:00,878
camp was Schlachtensee, it was eh, and I went there as a DP, as a Displaced Person. I stayed in Schlachtensee

682
01:06:00,878 --> 01:06:09,439
and then I went to, to Heidenheim, near Stuttgart and over there, in Germany I went to school, I was,

683
01:06:09,439 --> 01:06:17,830
then a half a day I went to, to work with a German, eh, a dentist and I wanted to be a dentist. And

684
01:06:17,830 --> 01:06:26,306
I started my work, and I, I, I, after two years I knew all the profession, eh, so my brother, one of

685
01:06:26,306 --> 01:06:34,783
my brothers was eh Jacob was eh, the leader of the, the camp, 3000 DP camp in Heidenheim. He gave me

686
01:06:34,783 --> 01:06:43,174
an apartment and I opened my office. Dental office. And I was working, I was a young boy, I had eh,

687
01:06:43,174 --> 01:06:51,820
made money, I had two motor cycles, I lived like a king. And I was going to go to Palestine that time,

688
01:06:51,820 --> 01:07:01,228
was no Israël yet. So my brothers went first, because they were Zionist, president of the Zionist organization

689
01:07:01,228 --> 01:07:09,705
and they send me a letter I should not come, because they are already in the army, they were already

690
01:07:09,705 --> 01:07:18,181
fighting with the Arabs, when I come to, when I will come to Palestine, they’ll take me right into

691
01:07:18,181 --> 01:07:26,742
the army and nobody be left from Bialowicz family from two hundred people. So I should go to America.

692
01:07:26,742 --> 01:07:35,218
So I registered to the Joint distribution. To America and they send me a contract to go to Columbus,

693
01:07:35,218 --> 01:07:43,694
Ohio. So I came to Boston, and from Boston they shipped me to Columbus. In Columbus I was working as

694
01:07:43,694 --> 01:07:52,170
a dental technician, because I didn’t have the, all the mine eh, finished yet. My dental eh and eh

695
01:07:52,170 --> 01:08:00,647
in Columbus, Ohio I couldn’t eh I couldn’t adjust myself. Because I didn’t have any eh, any eh

696
01:08:00,647 --> 01:08:03,189
social life. I was a young boy

697
01:08:03,310 --> 01:08:03,960
You were alone

698
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:12,024
Huh? So, so I, I had a job I bought a car, didn’t have any money, I went into the bank, I was (?) they

699
01:08:12,024 --> 01:08:19,934
gave me a, they ga, they gave me a loan and I bought a new car for hun, thousand four hundred dollars.

700
01:08:19,934 --> 01:08:27,999
It was a brand new Chevrolet, I went to Canada and from Canada I came to New York and I met many friends

701
01:08:27,999 --> 01:08:36,141
and I decided to move to New York. I came back to Columbus, Ohio, I told the boss that I decided to move,

702
01:08:36,141 --> 01:08:44,361
he called me into the office, he said Philip you are like a member of our family, sooner or later you’ll

703
01:08:44,361 --> 01:08:52,115
take over the whole operation. If you want more money, we give you more money, stay here, stay here.

704
01:08:52,115 --> 01:09:00,025
I said it’s not the money, it’s not, the adjustment, I cannot adjust myself. And eh he said, well,

705
01:09:00,025 --> 01:09:07,935
stay with us two weeks, you bring somebody in your place and eh, we pay for the transportation. If you

706
01:09:07,935 --> 01:09:15,689
ever decide to come back, the door is open for you. It was very nice of them. I came to New York and

707
01:09:15,689 --> 01:09:23,987
I eh decided that, at once I couldn’t become a, a dentist, I switched to jewelry. I went to, to a jewelry

708
01:09:23,987 --> 01:09:31,897
factory and I told them I had five years experience. I didn’t have five days. They said come one day

709
01:09:31,897 --> 01:09:39,961
and we’ll try out. So a whole weekend I couldn’t sleep. I said, what, what do I do? I told them five

710
01:09:39,961 --> 01:09:47,716
years. But one thing I knew how to solve that, because I made the teeth. So this is the other things

711
01:09:47,716 --> 01:09:55,548
maybe I will catch up. One day I come, they gave me a box of jewelry, I didn’t know where to start,

712
01:09:55,548 --> 01:10:03,535
beginning with. I struggled the whole day. Five o’clock I came into the office, I was shaking he took

713
01:10:03,535 --> 01:10:11,600
the all the jewelry, he, he, he checked it out, he says to me, Philip, it seems to me like you have only

714
01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:19,432
three years experience, not five. I heard this, I was very happy, I said, well, I’m not adjusted to

715
01:10:19,432 --> 01:10:27,419
this place, I don’t know where the chemicals are and I don’t know where, what is what. He said this

716
01:10:27,419 --> 01:10:35,252
is enough for me, tomorrow you can come to start to work. I came the next day and after three months,

717
01:10:35,252 --> 01:10:43,161
not full three months, he made me manager of the place. So this is after the war, you know, things you

718
01:10:43,161 --> 01:10:44,479
know, over there.

719
01:10:46,840 --> 01:10:53,580
Thanks Philip. Can we go back to your escape? How did you meet the Partizans?

720
01:10:53,580 --> 01:10:54,290
After I escaped?

721
01:10:54,290 --> 01:10:54,530
Yes.

722
01:10:54,530 --> 01:11:01,296
I met the Partizans eh, they, eh, one eh the Polish family told us in the, if I go to this area,

723
01:11:01,296 --> 01:11:07,921
to the, those woods, forest, (?) Partizans, they are, and, and they’ll, they’ll, they’ll

724
01:11:07,921 --> 01:11:13,490
take you in, because we had already weapons from the Germans that we took away.

725
01:11:13,490 --> 01:11:15,790
And they wanted them

726
01:11:15,790 --> 01:11:23,643
And, yes, and, and, eh, we joined them and they took us, they, they send us on mission

727
01:11:23,643 --> 01:11:31,496
to, to, to mine the railroad tracks, to mine, for the transportation. And we did a lot

728
01:11:31,496 --> 01:11:39,349
of things, but we, we overheard not good things, about anti-Semitism, that, that, they

729
01:11:39,349 --> 01:11:47,476
were not happy with us. So we we, we, we, we feared for our lives. So we, we, we managed,

730
01:11:47,476 --> 01:11:55,420
we, we decided to, to leave the Partizans. We escaped. And we escaped in all directions

731
01:11:55,420 --> 01:12:01,630
to the village, where, where I came from. You know? And eh it’s eh

732
01:12:01,630 --> 01:12:05,870
Were you scared to be betrayed by the Polish peasants?

733
01:12:05,870 --> 01:12:15,685
We were always afraid the Polish despite, you know, despite that I was saved by Polish family, but

734
01:12:15,685 --> 01:12:25,501
eh the, the situation in Poland was not, not conducive to, to the Jewish. They ha, they have, many

735
01:12:25,501 --> 01:12:35,618
of them collaborated with the Germans. Many Poles. When I speak in Poland in the universities I speak

736
01:12:35,618 --> 01:12:45,835
the good things and the bad things. You know? It does, does, many of them helped Jews and many of them

737
01:12:45,835 --> 01:12:56,151
collaborated with the German and took us to the Germans to be killed. So eh is eh and eh I, I’m under

738
01:12:56,151 --> 01:13:06,869
the impression that they, they made the, the death camps in Poland because they had their full cooperation.

739
01:13:06,869 --> 01:13:17,186
Because Poland was anti-Semitism was very strong in Poland. So eh but I have now, I have good relations

740
01:13:17,186 --> 01:13:27,302
with the Polish students, I speak in the universities in Krakau, Warsaw, now I am going to Gdansk and

741
01:13:27,302 --> 01:13:37,418
Wałęsa wants to meet me. I have good experience with the Polish young people and I, they learn from

742
01:13:37,418 --> 01:13:47,936
me and I learn from them. You know? That to, to build a better world, because in Sobibor we were fighting

743
01:13:47,936 --> 01:13:57,952
not only for our lives, we are fighting for a world without genocide. A world without anti-Semitism.

744
01:13:57,952 --> 01:14:08,168
But now we are building new Sobibors. In Africa, like in Darfour, hundreds of thousands of people were

745
01:14:08,168 --> 01:14:18,085
killed because of religion. And eh even, eh Iran is building nuclear bombs for the same reasons for

746
01:14:18,085 --> 01:14:21,090
the German build crematoriums.

747
01:14:21,090 --> 01:14:21,970
Yes

748
01:14:22,470 --> 01:14:31,852
So we have to be on guard for any manifestation of anti-Semitism and genocide and

749
01:14:31,852 --> 01:14:40,540
to be, to build a better world. This is, that’s, that’s why I, that’s

750
01:14:40,540 --> 01:14:40,540
Absolutely

751
01:14:40,630 --> 01:14:48,868
why I go to places, I go all over the world and I speak and to, and to tell the story not,

752
01:14:48,868 --> 01:14:57,197
not all, not many of the survivors, they don’t want to go to Poland, they don’t want to

753
01:14:57,197 --> 01:15:05,802
speak about eh, about the, about their experiences in the, in the camps. It’s very difficult

754
01:15:05,802 --> 01:15:14,040
to go, to go to remember the experiences. But I am on a different opinion. I disagree with

755
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:21,180
them. I think we have to learn, we have to teach the new generation. You know?

756
01:15:21,180 --> 01:15:28,964
Absolutely. I’m still thinking about your escape, Philip. Which you touched very

757
01:15:28,964 --> 01:15:36,654
short in your wonderful story. Eh when you are talking about the good side of the

758
01:15:36,654 --> 01:15:44,344
Polish, there were Poles who did hide you and protected you. Eh, can you describe

759
01:15:44,344 --> 01:15:50,990
the situation when you were in hiding? Was it a cellar, was it a hole?

760
01:15:50,990 --> 01:16:00,409
Oh, the, the we were hiding, we, we had a, we had underground underground we had a place. Maybe twelve

761
01:16:00,409 --> 01:16:09,737
by twelve cubic meter and eh and they brought us they brought us food The food, they, they brought in

762
01:16:09,737 --> 01:16:19,895
a pail like, like they go for, to milk wo, like they want to milk eh for the cow so the neighbors shouldn’t,

763
01:16:19,895 --> 01:16:29,130
shouldn’t shouldn’t notice something wrong. And at night we went out to exercises. You know. And

764
01:16:29,130 --> 01:16:38,458
also mine eh, the, the family, they were vo, they were very poor. So they didn’t have any money, so

765
01:16:38,458 --> 01:16:47,970
we, we wanted to give him, to help him. We had we had those, some gold pieces. From, we took, (?) I was

766
01:16:47,970 --> 01:16:57,205
working with millions of dollars of jewelry, so Simcha told me to take something along. So eh so we,

767
01:16:57,205 --> 01:17:06,440
my, s, we made it s, so that he shouldn’t, they shouldn’t know that we have, we have jewelry. So

768
01:17:06,440 --> 01:17:13,090
many often they, they, they killed the people, you know, many, many they

769
01:17:13,090 --> 01:17:13,230
For that reason

770
01:17:13,230 --> 01:17:22,446
took him in, they took him in and they killed him. So I’m, I made it with my brother that he disappeared

771
01:17:22,446 --> 01:17:31,054
for the whole, for the whole day and night. You know? He was hiding in the in the barn. But he goes

772
01:17:31,054 --> 01:17:39,748
to the pharmacy in Izbica to get money. They owned the money. And then the bread, we, we, we brought

773
01:17:39,748 --> 01:17:48,704
the money, you know and they, and they and eh (?) he went just for, for a short time. just to exchange,

774
01:17:48,704 --> 01:17:57,225
exchange the, the, the, the gold for, for Polish money and we gave him the money, they shouldn’t

775
01:17:57,225 --> 01:18:06,180
be, he shouldn’t be eh he shouldn’t have any eh doubt, that we have some jewelry, you know. Because

776
01:18:06,180 --> 01:18:11,050
we were afraid too, despite they helped us. But you know

777
01:18:11,050 --> 01:18:11,760
You had to be careful

778
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:16,900
the jewelry, it’s, it’s eh magnetism, you know. So we had to be careful.

779
01:18:16,900 --> 01:18:18,190
But you trusted the pharma (?) cie

780
01:18:18,190 --> 01:18:26,469
So it’s, eh, no it’s a very tempting, what I remember. When we were liberated for the, from, from

781
01:18:26,469 --> 01:18:35,076
the, by the Russians we, we stopped eh, we stopped a Polish farmer with, it’s in my book, and he should

782
01:18:35,076 --> 01:18:43,273
take us to Zamość and we, eh we put the, we put some stuff, our belongings, what we have, whatever

783
01:18:43,273 --> 01:18:51,553
we have, we went to get the rest of the, we came out, he disappeared. He ran away with the, with the,

784
01:18:51,553 --> 01:18:59,996
with the horses I think. So we went, we went down the, the, the road and the, the front was maybe about

785
01:18:59,996 --> 01:19:08,193
four, five kilometers away, was the, the, the the, the, the fighting (?) from the Germans so we, eh,

786
01:19:08,193 --> 01:19:16,308
the officer came out, a major, came out on the from the truck and he speaks to us Jewish. A Russian

787
01:19:16,308 --> 01:19:24,588
eh, a Jewish officer. So we tell him what hap, we told him what happened. They put away our stuff and

788
01:19:24,588 --> 01:19:32,867
he ran away. So he says go on the truck, we went on the truck, he made a U-turn, you know, those road

789
01:19:32,867 --> 01:19:41,228
they’re almost, they almost over turned, and maybe by, by a couple of kilometers away, he caught the

790
01:19:41,228 --> 01:19:49,507
guy with the things. So first of all he went over them, he beat him up a little bit, he didn’t shot

791
01:19:49,507 --> 01:19:57,951
them, and the told us like, he told us they’re to, to, to, to, it was, was, was, was, was all covered

792
01:19:57,951 --> 01:20:06,312
with straw. He opened up (?) we opened up, there is a whole cow, in, in, in four parts, a leg, a whole

793
01:20:06,312 --> 01:20:14,509
cow. He was, he was taking the cow some place for sale. He said take the whole cow and put it on the

794
01:20:14,509 --> 01:20:22,870
truck. You know? I was weighing 65 pounds and I, I have, I cannot, they, take eh a cow, the, I don’t

795
01:20:22,870 --> 01:20:31,068
have any strength, you know (laughs) we, we, we struggled, we took the whole four parts from the cow

796
01:20:31,068 --> 01:20:39,347
and we put it on the truck, you know and our belongings, so he was, eh, so eh, and eh, so I was thin,

797
01:20:39,347 --> 01:20:47,462
eh thinking he was taking now to Zamość. Where is he taking? He is taking us to the front, he has

798
01:20:47,462 --> 01:20:49,840
to deliver the, the supplies.

799
01:20:53,640 --> 01:20:54,380
Yes

800
01:20:54,840 --> 01:21:00,169
And the Katyushas (makes whistling sound), oh, we had survived Sobibor, here are, here I am on the

801
01:21:00,169 --> 01:21:05,444
front, you know, here I’m going to die, you know. For him it’s nothing, we go, they go on the

802
01:21:05,444 --> 01:21:10,719
fire, you know. We came to the, it’s, it’s like I, it’s like, like Stalingrad, the fighting

803
01:21:10,719 --> 01:21:16,157
there. I figured I’m not going to come back here, I’m going to die here. Eh, we, we, now we have

804
01:21:16,157 --> 01:21:21,486
to unload everything, it was, it was a big effort to load it and unloaded the cow, it’s hundreds

805
01:21:21,486 --> 01:21:26,925
of pounds. And after we unloaded, then they took us back to Zamość. This is a episode right after,

806
01:21:26,925 --> 01:21:31,330
after it’s a good epis right after the war, you know. They took us to Zamość.

807
01:21:31,330 --> 01:21:34,600
And in Zamość, what happened in Zamość?

808
01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:37,680
Samozc, like I mentioned in the, they arrested me and they throw

809
01:21:37,750 --> 01:21:39,070
That’s in Zamość

810
01:21:39,070 --> 01:21:42,914
I, they throw in a grenade, you know. And I was living a little

811
01:21:42,914 --> 01:21:46,210
bit in Zamość then, we we went eh, we went to Berlin

812
01:21:46,210 --> 01:21:47,050
Went to Berlin

813
01:21:47,050 --> 01:21:52,241
to Lublin, to a big city and from there I went to eh, we stayed there, we living

814
01:21:52,241 --> 01:21:56,590
in a little bit, but till, till I could manage to go to, to Berlin.

815
01:21:56,590 --> 01:22:07,520
I have another question. Did Simcha trust the pharmacist in Izbica when you were in hiding?

816
01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:07,810
In Izbi

817
01:22:07,810 --> 01:22:08,070
Yes

818
01:22:08,070 --> 01:22:08,700
he was not

819
01:22:08,700 --> 01:22:09,050
Sim, Simcha

820
01:22:09,050 --> 01:22:10,020
he was not working in

821
01:22:10,020 --> 01:22:10,510
Simcha is

822
01:22:10,510 --> 01:22:14,180
in, during the, eh, he does not work in the pharmacy, he was

823
01:22:14,180 --> 01:22:16,100
No, I’m, I’m asking you a different question, sorry

824
01:22:16,100 --> 01:22:16,630
Yes, yes

825
01:22:16,630 --> 01:22:21,500
You said eh you exchanged jewelry for money at the pharmacy

826
01:22:21,500 --> 01:22:24,530
Oh, this, this is at, when we were hiding in

827
01:22:24,530 --> 01:22:25,400
Yes

828
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:26,910
b, in the barn. With the Polish family

829
01:22:26,910 --> 01:22:27,490
Was that in Izbica?

830
01:22:27,490 --> 01:22:30,290
He went to, Izbica is only three kilometers away.

831
01:22:30,290 --> 01:22:30,960
okay

832
01:22:31,280 --> 01:22:36,950
He walked, he walked to the Izbica, at night

833
01:22:36,950 --> 01:22:37,680
But he trusted the pharmacist?

834
01:22:37,680 --> 01:22:37,680
Huh?

835
01:22:37,680 --> 01:22:38,170
Did he trust

836
01:22:38,170 --> 01:22:45,027
Did, yes, the pharmacy he trusted, he knew him because he sold them many times, gold, jewelry,

837
01:22:45,027 --> 01:22:51,447
gold eh pieces, yes, he, he trusted him because eh, he knew him well, you know. As a, as

838
01:22:51,447 --> 01:22:57,940
a pharmacist. And he, he, he told him to be careful what happened you know. So it’s eh,

839
01:22:57,940 --> 01:23:03,120
he was some Poles were okay, like I say, it’s, eh, good and bad ones.

840
01:23:04,660 --> 01:23:10,930
Like, like in any nationality, but in Poland was a little more. Poland has a history

841
01:23:10,930 --> 01:23:16,146
You came to New York, you got two children by your first wife,

842
01:23:16,146 --> 01:23:21,110
she passed away, you got three children by your second wife

843
01:23:21,110 --> 01:23:21,110
Yes

844
01:23:21,110 --> 01:23:21,520
Your daughter

845
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:25,727
I don’t have to tell what happened to my, about the, my, this is what

846
01:23:25,727 --> 01:23:29,460
happened to my second wife. Maybe I had two wives, that’s it.

847
01:23:29,460 --> 01:23:29,460
Yes, of course

848
01:23:29,790 --> 01:23:37,330
First wife, and then, then we met and a second wife, it is eh

849
01:23:37,330 --> 01:23:37,330
And you separated

850
01:23:37,330 --> 01:23:37,330
Yes

851
01:23:37,330 --> 01:23:37,330
and

852
01:23:37,330 --> 01:23:39,060
we divorced, the second wife eh, so it is

853
01:23:39,060 --> 01:23:42,640
And you are a single now and everybody likes you

854
01:23:42,640 --> 01:23:51,147
I won’t say everybody, it’s, it’s, it’s a compliment my (?) just joking,

855
01:23:51,147 --> 01:23:59,230
comple, I eh I, I feel very good to be, to be surrounding with many friends.

856
01:23:59,230 --> 01:23:59,710
Sure

857
01:23:59,710 --> 01:24:03,610
You know? And I have flexibility.

858
01:24:03,610 --> 01:24:10,860
Now, did you always work as a jeweler or as a management in jewelry, did you remain in it

859
01:24:10,860 --> 01:24:18,210
Well, that I, like I mentioned before, mine job, I was in the dental line, dental

860
01:24:18,210 --> 01:24:19,210
Yes, you did

861
01:24:19,210 --> 01:24:23,580
and after the dental I switched to jewelry, you have my whole eh story about the jewelry I gave you

862
01:24:23,580 --> 01:24:24,450
Absolutely

863
01:24:24,940 --> 01:24:35,559
and then eh, after eh, I was working within the jewelry for a few years, I went eh in business

864
01:24:35,559 --> 01:24:44,710
for myself. Manufacturing jewelry. And then eh, and now now I’m busy lecturing.

865
01:24:44,970 --> 01:24:45,600
Yes, sure

866
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:54,784
So now I have a fulltime jec, lecturing, but I still eh have contact in the jewelry business,

867
01:24:54,784 --> 01:25:04,462
if somebody needs something I still can get the good prices. Like half the price from eh whatever,

868
01:25:04,462 --> 01:25:13,843
whatever it is in the store. So it keeps me occupied between the jewelry and the lecturing. And

869
01:25:13,843 --> 01:25:23,916
I try to educate the people, especial the new generation. You know. About my inspirational experiences

870
01:25:23,916 --> 01:25:33,199
and to, to build a new world. Because the world is still profoundly broken. And we have to fix

871
01:25:33,199 --> 01:25:42,383
it, but you don’t know how to begin with. You know? It’s eh, we have to Sobibor should be

872
01:25:42,383 --> 01:25:48,209
a lesson. For everybody. How we fought back, the injustice.

873
01:25:48,210 --> 01:25:54,330
Can I ask you a question about your story: what happened to your father?

874
01:25:55,190 --> 01:25:55,750
My father

875
01:25:55,750 --> 01:25:57,790
because your father is nowhere in your story

876
01:25:57,790 --> 01:26:04,234
My father, like I mentioned, he was, my father was very

877
01:26:04,234 --> 01:26:10,210
eh, very involved in the Jewish community in Izbica

878
01:26:11,320 --> 01:26:11,660
Hmhm

879
01:26:11,660 --> 01:26:25,520
because of eh, he also was a business, he was in the business very eh, eh anerkennt, anerkennt, (?)

880
01:26:25,520 --> 01:26:25,860
Yes

881
01:26:25,860 --> 01:26:26,120
you speak German too, huh?

882
01:26:26,120 --> 01:26:27,630
Yes, sure

883
01:26:27,630 --> 01:26:36,846
And he, he was very liked in the business circles and eh, he tried to help people as best as

884
01:26:36,846 --> 01:26:46,164
possible, like I mentioned he gave money to buy food for the Shabbat, for, for, for, the, for

885
01:26:46,164 --> 01:26:54,780
the poor people and eh but he did not he refused to join the Judenrat. During the war.

886
01:26:55,090 --> 01:26:55,700
He was asked?

887
01:26:55,700 --> 01:27:05,283
Yes. He was active in Izbica but eh, did not, no, no, Judenrat he didn’t want to join because

888
01:27:05,283 --> 01:27:14,867
he figured the Judenrat had to take orders from the Germans, so it’s to, to to supply people,

889
01:27:14,867 --> 01:27:24,450
thousands of people to go the, to the camps, you know. He didn’t want to take part in it. But

890
01:27:24,450 --> 01:27:33,731
he was taking, he, he was, he, he w, he was eh caught and they, and they took him in a train

891
01:27:33,731 --> 01:27:43,617
to Belzec. And before Belzec he escaped from the train from the windows and he came back to Izbica

892
01:27:43,617 --> 01:27:53,100
and the police, the Polish police caught him and they took him to to the Germans and, and then

893
01:27:53,100 --> 01:28:02,784
he went to the transport to, to Sobibor. So my father eh went to Sobibor too. My mother was shot

894
01:28:02,784 --> 01:28:12,771
in Izbica, my father went to Sobibor and my two sisters, my three sisters, and eh, two nie, nieces,

895
01:28:12,771 --> 01:28:22,052
eh a niece and a nephew, they all went to Sobibor, perished. And, and hundreds of members of

896
01:28:22,052 --> 01:28:31,434
the family (?) cousins, (?) so they all were perished so tragically. And eh sometimes, when I

897
01:28:31,434 --> 01:28:36,680
go to Sobibor, when I stand before the the ashes (?)

898
01:28:37,570 --> 01:28:38,230
The hill?

899
01:28:38,230 --> 01:28:49,243
and I talk to myself, those people, which there perished, if they would be alive today, how much they

900
01:28:49,243 --> 01:29:00,039
could contribute to the world, in medicine in every aspects of life, it would be a better, a better

901
01:29:00,039 --> 01:29:10,616
place to live. And they all perished so tragically. And, and here I am being there as a teenager,

902
01:29:10,616 --> 01:29:21,521
I survived Sobibor, what made me to survive, but maybe because I had a, had a, God gave me a mission

903
01:29:21,521 --> 01:29:32,207
to teach the world. Because the the the the Holocaust was not done by God, the Holocaust was done

904
01:29:32,207 --> 01:29:42,785
by people. You have eh good people and evil people. So they got, they got the overhand, you know,

905
01:29:42,785 --> 01:29:51,400
the bad people. You know, the evil people and they, they created the Holocaust.

906
01:29:51,400 --> 01:29:56,720
Philip, you have been eh at many trials about Sobibor, you have been a witness in many cases

907
01:29:56,720 --> 01:29:56,720
Oh

908
01:29:56,720 --> 01:29:57,540
can you

909
01:29:57,820 --> 01:29:58,560
it’s a very good

910
01:29:58,560 --> 01:29:59,260
talk about that?

911
01:29:59,260 --> 01:30:05,572
it’s a good question. [scrapes throat] I came eh to a t,

912
01:30:05,572 --> 01:30:11,450
I was invited to a trial to Hagen, Germany, on Frenzel

913
01:30:11,450 --> 01:30:11,570
’62 huh?

914
01:30:11,570 --> 01:30:12,440
Huh? Yes

915
01:30:12,440 --> 01:30:13,460
When was it?

916
01:30:13,460 --> 01:30:17,590
I think so ’62. I think so. And I was

917
01:30:17,680 --> 01:30:18,940
Was it ’62 or ’65?

918
01:30:18,940 --> 01:30:21,550
I don’t know exactly, but you, we can check it out.

919
01:30:21,550 --> 01:30:23,490
We can check, yes.

920
01:30:23,490 --> 01:30:33,185
The the trial was an eh, I c, when I came to Hagen, when I came to a hotel, I had a note on my desk.

921
01:30:33,185 --> 01:30:42,589
And eh, and eh, the desk was say Mister Bialowicz my name is so and so and my husband’s name is

922
01:30:42,589 --> 01:30:52,187
Kiltwa, Killwagen. I am eh teacher of religion, she is professor, my husband, I don’t know, he is

923
01:30:52,187 --> 01:31:01,591
an architect or I don’t remember exactly, I know, we are on the welcome committee, we know that

924
01:31:01,591 --> 01:31:10,995
you are going to go through a very a, very anics, eh, very, very, not good experiences during the

925
01:31:10,995 --> 01:31:20,787
trial. Unpleasant experiences during the trial, but we want to make you stay as pleasant as possible.

926
01:31:20,787 --> 01:31:30,676
Seven o’clock we are coming to pick you up to our house. To, for dinner. Exactly like Germans, seven

927
01:31:30,676 --> 01:31:37,560
o’clock they came exactly with their Mercedes, and they took me home.

928
01:31:37,560 --> 01:31:40,929
And the, the, the table was decorated with, with, with porcelain and crystal like,

929
01:31:40,929 --> 01:31:43,930
like I was being a, like, like, like I’ll be a king, you know, the, the

930
01:31:43,930 --> 01:31:44,990
Or, or family member

931
01:31:44,990 --> 01:31:45,910
family member

932
01:31:45,910 --> 01:31:47,150
I do this for family

933
01:31:47,150 --> 01:31:50,930
Yes, yes, yes.

934
01:31:50,930 --> 01:31:50,930
[laughs], sorry

935
01:31:50,930 --> 01:31:59,383
Then I saw artifacts, Jewish artifacts all around the wall. So I asked them what is this? She

936
01:31:59,383 --> 01:32:07,746
said to me I am a religious teacher and I collect artifacts. Religious artifacts. Okay. Then

937
01:32:07,746 --> 01:32:16,473
she said I’m going to invite my parents to meet such a very important guest here  So I figured

938
01:32:16,473 --> 01:32:23,200
her father will come and I will recognize him from Sobibor maybe. [laughs]

939
01:32:23,200 --> 01:32:24,010
Okay, what happened?

940
01:32:24,010 --> 01:32:32,955
So twenty minutes they came in, the father hugs me, hugged me, you know, he takes out, and then his

941
01:32:32,955 --> 01:32:42,081
wife greeted me very nicely, he takes out the album and he shows me that he collects all the pictures

942
01:32:42,081 --> 01:32:50,846
form the Jewish community in Hagen. Hagen. And eh he wants to take me over, he is restoring this,

943
01:32:50,846 --> 01:32:59,792
the synagogue. He wants to show me how he’s restoring the synagogue and I fi, I, I said to myself

944
01:32:59,792 --> 01:33:06,840
this is Germans, I thought all the Germans are like eh, like Wagner or Frenzel

945
01:33:06,840 --> 01:33:07,520
No they are not

946
01:33:07,520 --> 01:33:14,758
that this is Germans and Mister Bialowicz, tomorrow we have tickets on opera,

947
01:33:14,758 --> 01:33:21,620
to go. I was surprised you know? And they gave me a red carpet treatment.

948
01:33:21,620 --> 01:33:21,620
Aha

949
01:33:21,620 --> 01:33:28,491
During my trial. And I went to the trial. The trial was packed with students,

950
01:33:28,491 --> 01:33:35,362
college students, university students, with eh, with high school students and

951
01:33:35,362 --> 01:33:42,412
the trial started and Frenzel, he took eh the lawyer, he, he, he hired the best

952
01:33:42,412 --> 01:33:48,569
lawyers because he had he had so much gold, so much jewelries, he had

953
01:33:48,570 --> 01:33:49,560
He had enough money

954
01:33:49,560 --> 01:33:57,781
money to hire the best lawyers. And the lawyer started to interrogate me like I was being

955
01:33:57,781 --> 01:34:06,280
on trial. I asked the judge you brought me over as a witness? And how, who is on trial here,

956
01:34:06,280 --> 01:34:14,502
or this, or this eh or this eh murderer? And to the lawyer I said if you put on a uniform

957
01:34:14,502 --> 01:34:22,817
I might recognize you too. [laughs] He came over to, to, to me during the recess, he said,

958
01:34:22,817 --> 01:34:31,223
Mister Bialowicz, I am not a Nazi, I have Jewish friends. I said the gold, eh Waldheim, the

959
01:34:31,223 --> 01:34:38,060
general secretary of the United Nations also has Jewish friends. You know?

960
01:34:38,060 --> 01:34:38,730
It was at that time

961
01:34:38,730 --> 01:34:39,490
And he was

962
01:34:39,490 --> 01:34:39,790
yes

963
01:34:39,790 --> 01:34:46,340
he was eh big Nazi. And if you would speak to me, a survivor, a teenager, you have to speak to me

964
01:34:46,340 --> 01:34:53,026
through silk and the judge told him to go easy with me. And I had to go through all the experiences

965
01:34:53,026 --> 01:34:59,779
and I had to tell the story about that transport where I, when I pulled the woman, her skin remained

966
01:34:59,779 --> 01:35:05,790
in my hands and I, and I couldn’t continue, I got sick. The doctor came in to treat me.

967
01:35:05,790 --> 01:35:05,790
Wagner?

968
01:35:05,790 --> 01:35:05,790
The doctor.

969
01:35:05,790 --> 01:35:05,790
Yes, yes, yes

970
01:35:05,790 --> 01:35:07,590
The doctor, he came to treat me

971
01:35:07,590 --> 01:35:08,040
Yes

972
01:35:08,040 --> 01:35:16,573
and the Schumanns came over to me and they hugged me and said Mister Bialowicz it’s not

973
01:35:16,573 --> 01:35:25,395
our fault. This is all our grandparents, they are, we want to have a good relations with the

974
01:35:25,395 --> 01:35:34,121
Jews. So you have you have so you have Germans and the, they, they say all the Germans, are

975
01:35:34,121 --> 01:35:42,654
bad. I am of a different vision, I have said you have you have good Germans too. And the,

976
01:35:42,654 --> 01:35:50,230
the, the, the judge told me that his two daughters are in a kibbutz in Israël.

977
01:35:50,700 --> 01:35:52,050
That they are filled with Germans

978
01:35:52,050 --> 01:35:53,580
The, the judge. Huh?

979
01:35:53,580 --> 01:35:54,120
They are filled with Germans

980
01:35:54,120 --> 01:35:54,780
At what?

981
01:35:54,780 --> 01:35:56,440
The kibbutzim are filled with Germans

982
01:35:56,440 --> 01:36:02,096
Yes? He told me, I said you see, I, so eh you see you see a judge, they send

983
01:36:02,096 --> 01:36:07,977
their children to a kibbutz. So you can’t judge that all the Germans, I think

984
01:36:07,977 --> 01:36:13,634
all they’re murderers, they should be persecuted, they should, they should

985
01:36:13,634 --> 01:36:18,770
get, they should get eh what they be, what belongs to them. So we can

986
01:36:18,770 --> 01:36:21,770
But what happened during the eh trial, I mean what was

987
01:36:21,770 --> 01:36:31,219
At the trial, the trial, I I brought that episode what happened with Frenzel, how I was beaten,

988
01:36:31,219 --> 01:36:40,171
how, how he mistreated the, the prisoners, how he mistreated the people that came with the

989
01:36:40,171 --> 01:36:49,919
transports and eh and eh I had an episode that eh a friend of my was, was with my, in the barracks

990
01:36:49,919 --> 01:36:57,279
with me, we, we, he, he was, he was sleeping one, one bed below me. And he

991
01:36:57,630 --> 01:36:57,770
Frenzel?

992
01:36:57,770 --> 01:37:00,180
he, no, one of my f, friends

993
01:37:00,470 --> 01:37:01,220
Okay, okay, sorry

994
01:37:01,220 --> 01:37:02,970
in the barracks where we, we used

995
01:37:02,980 --> 01:37:04,650
sorry, I apologize, yes?

996
01:37:04,650 --> 01:37:09,615
by the, by the, by, eh, eh by our living quarters. And once he came out to that eh, to

997
01:37:09,615 --> 01:37:14,639
that magazine where I was sorting the food. Whatever I opened the food, was al the gold

998
01:37:14,639 --> 01:37:18,970
with diamonds. That I had throw into the safe, like I mentioned, I throw in

999
01:37:18,970 --> 01:37:18,970
In the toilet, yes

1000
01:37:19,060 --> 01:37:28,020
most of it into the toilet. He came in, he was, name is Mordechai, I should give him some food. So I

1001
01:37:28,020 --> 01:37:36,891
gave him was, was the, the, the, from Holland, was the, this, the jars with, with butter, you know?

1002
01:37:36,891 --> 01:37:46,030
With Holland I gave him, I gave him eh salami, I gave him eh different things a package, he walked out

1003
01:37:46,030 --> 01:37:55,170
and I, maybe eh two blocks away Frenzel caught him with the package. And I saw through the window that

1004
01:37:55,170 --> 01:38:04,220
he goes to, towards towards that magazine. So I figured he told him that I gave him this and he come,

1005
01:38:04,220 --> 01:38:13,090
he is taking into eh, to eh, to show me who, who, who gave you this. So I so I grabbed some jewelry

1006
01:38:13,090 --> 01:38:22,140
and I ran to the toilet. To hide, you know? And I w, and I was in the toilet there. And they eh, they

1007
01:38:22,140 --> 01:38:31,190
called my name. They called my name, I should immediately come to the so I figured this is the end of

1008
01:38:31,190 --> 01:38:40,599
my life. But I wanted to live. So it’s still in my instinct, I want to live. Why should I do it, should

1009
01:38:40,599 --> 01:38:49,559
I throw my into the toilets, you know those pits, should I throw myself inside to the toilets or, or

1010
01:38:49,559 --> 01:38:58,967
to go back and face the consequences. I, I decided to go back. I came back, all the workers were standing

1011
01:38:58,967 --> 01:39:08,017
were standing in eh, lined up, and they’re waiting for me. I figure they are waiting for me because

1012
01:39:08,017 --> 01:39:16,977
he’s going to tell them that I gave him this. I came over and Frenzel asked him. Who gave you this

1013
01:39:16,977 --> 01:39:26,027
package? Here you have all the people here. Show them, show me who gave you this. So you know what he

1014
01:39:26,027 --> 01:39:34,988
said? He said he took it himself. So he saved my life, he saved all this lives, this was, I consider

1015
01:39:34,988 --> 01:39:44,127
this heroism. Because still today I pray for his soul. That he saved my life. And the, the judge asked

1016
01:39:44,127 --> 01:39:53,267
me what happened to, to him? On the trial. I said he took him away, I heard a shot and eh half an hour

1017
01:39:53,267 --> 01:40:02,496
later his clothing, this clothing, I saw it in his clothing. And, and, and, and then he said, and, and,

1018
01:40:02,496 --> 01:40:11,636
and at night he didn’t sleep with me anymore. He was not there. So I gave fact I had to give hundred

1019
01:40:11,636 --> 01:40:20,506
percent facts what he did. That he committed a crime. So that’s why, my testimony, the judge said

1020
01:40:20,506 --> 01:40:22,030
he was very makes

1021
01:40:22,810 --> 01:40:23,260
moved

1022
01:40:23,260 --> 01:40:28,374
makes him give eh the, the life imprisonment. Because it was a very powerful

1023
01:40:28,374 --> 01:40:33,623
testimony I gave. Powerful. And he got life imprisonment but he, then he, then

1024
01:40:33,623 --> 01:40:38,200
he got in the, he got out, because of sickness of this, you know how

1025
01:40:38,200 --> 01:40:38,330
like it is

1026
01:40:38,940 --> 01:40:39,630
the

1027
01:40:39,630 --> 01:40:39,630
like it is. Like it is.

1028
01:40:42,580 --> 01:40:46,500
So this is, this the trial eh

1029
01:40:46,500 --> 01:40:48,020
Were those hard periods, those

1030
01:40:48,020 --> 01:40:48,760
Huh?

1031
01:40:48,760 --> 01:40:53,030
tri, so, such a trial, was it a hard period? Was it difficult for you?

1032
01:40:53,080 --> 01:41:01,217
For me it was very difficult, I got sick in the, during the trial, they, the doctor had to treat

1033
01:41:01,217 --> 01:41:09,100
me. Because it was very difficult for me to go through all the experiences I went though what

1034
01:41:09,100 --> 01:41:16,983
I saw and especially when I was so young. And it had a very, very psychological effect on me.

1035
01:41:16,983 --> 01:41:24,697
I told the judge I still have night, nightmares. I wake up in screaming. Especially on that

1036
01:41:24,697 --> 01:41:30,970
transport. Other other episode we had with Wagner. You heard about Wagner?

1037
01:41:30,970 --> 01:41:30,970
Yes, sure

1038
01:41:30,970 --> 01:41:39,232
He was a bandit, eh he he, he, he needed satisfaction, something to happen, I should do something

1039
01:41:39,232 --> 01:41:47,581
against the prisoners. He took me and eh couple of other boys to empty a well.  Just empty a well,

1040
01:41:47,581 --> 01:41:55,929
just for nothing. And he throw in those pails on their head and the, the water came, came out with

1041
01:41:55,929 --> 01:42:03,170
blood. We, wet, because he opened up our skulls. This was his satisfaction. You know.

1042
01:42:03,170 --> 01:42:05,000
I don’t understand completely

1043
01:42:05,000 --> 01:42:06,350
He took us to a well

1044
01:42:06,810 --> 01:42:06,990
Yes?

1045
01:42:06,990 --> 01:42:08,580
you know? To empty the well.

1046
01:42:08,580 --> 01:42:08,580
Yes

1047
01:42:08,580 --> 01:42:09,870
The water, to empty, to empty it.

1048
01:42:09,870 --> 01:42:10,120
Yes

1049
01:42:10,120 --> 01:42:14,000
And he was standing on the top and, and

1050
01:42:14,000 --> 01:42:14,690
And threw stones

1051
01:42:14,690 --> 01:42:18,486
with, with, with another guy, with a Polish, with a Jew, and he was

1052
01:42:18,486 --> 01:42:21,830
throwing in the, the empty pa, the empty pails, he threw in

1053
01:42:21,830 --> 01:42:21,900
Okay

1054
01:42:21,900 --> 01:42:29,475
on their heads, so they should empty the, the, in the water, the water became like blood,

1055
01:42:29,475 --> 01:42:36,540
red. This was his satisfaction. I te, I testified this in me, in the, at the trial.

1056
01:42:36,540 --> 01:42:36,690
It was

1057
01:42:36,690 --> 01:42:37,350
He was a

1058
01:42:37,350 --> 01:42:37,520
personal

1059
01:42:37,520 --> 01:42:45,352
he was a very bestia, bestialski, be, be, bestial. And eh once he took me after the transport,

1060
01:42:45,352 --> 01:42:53,435
when the transport came on the yard, people tried to hide to hide the jewelry, diamonds diamonds,

1061
01:42:53,435 --> 01:43:01,268
gold pieces under the sand, it was all sand, and then he was, he was the smartest, the Wagner,

1062
01:43:01,268 --> 01:43:09,184
smartest, intelligent and he knew this. That they were hi, probably were hiding the jewelry. He

1063
01:43:09,184 --> 01:43:17,266
took me, he took me one time to with him, around four o’clock in the afternoon to look for the,

1064
01:43:17,266 --> 01:43:25,432
for the jewels, I find jewels, I gave him and he find eh too but till today I could not understand

1065
01:43:25,432 --> 01:43:33,515
why he didn’t shoot me, because he w, I, he could, he could have think that I’m going to tell

1066
01:43:33,515 --> 01:43:41,598
somebody for the other Germans will find out, you know, that I, that, that I gave him the jewelry

1067
01:43:41,598 --> 01:43:49,847
from the, from the, from under the sand and it was also a miracle that he didn’t kill me. Because

1068
01:43:49,847 --> 01:43:57,846
after I got the jewelry, he could have take me to the death camp and and kill me. So I have many

1069
01:43:57,846 --> 01:44:01,430
miracles in life. In Sobibor and in Izbica.

1070
01:44:01,430 --> 01:44:09,068
But we were you were, you were so lucky. But we were talking about those trials.

1071
01:44:09,068 --> 01:44:15,180
After, Hagen was the only one and now Demjanjuk is the next one?

1072
01:44:15,180 --> 01:44:33,247
Demjanjuk, Demjanjuk’s trial was very important for me to go and to testify.

1073
01:44:33,247 --> 01:44:47,840
Because eh [turning page] I want to read this to you, so it’s

1074
01:44:47,840 --> 01:44:48,780
Do so

1075
01:44:48,780 --> 01:44:49,590
so let’s put together

1076
01:44:49,590 --> 01:44:51,200
if you want to do so

1077
01:44:56,150 --> 01:45:05,619
what. Three months ago I went to Germany to Munich to testify on Demjanjuk’s trial. He’s accused

1078
01:45:05,619 --> 01:45:15,373
of having served in Sobibor as one of the Ukrainian guards during the six months when I was in Sobibor.

1079
01:45:15,373 --> 01:45:25,505
I was a prisoner in camp. I cannot recognize the, Mister Demjanjuk. But, eh nor can I rem, eh rec, remember

1080
01:45:25,505 --> 01:45:34,975
the faces of most of Sobibor guards. During the court proceeding I simply informed the German judges

1081
01:45:34,975 --> 01:45:44,823
that, that they, of the crimes that, that I witness at Sobibor. Including the tales of how the Ukrainian

1082
01:45:44,823 --> 01:45:54,482
guards routinely supervised beat and shot Jewish prisoners. Mister Demjanjuk’s attorney defended his

1083
01:45:54,482 --> 01:46:04,236
client by saying that all Ukrainian guards at Sobibor were prisoners of war. Who would have been killed

1084
01:46:04,236 --> 01:46:13,800
by the Germans if they did not follow the orders. [leest deels teksten voor]But I believe that nobody

1085
01:46:13,800 --> 01:46:23,554
has the right to save his life by beating or shooting innocent men, women and children. There is always

1086
01:46:23,554 --> 01:46:33,213
a moral responsibility to resist anti moral act, anti moral order. If the court determines that Mister

1087
01:46:33,213 --> 01:46:42,777
Demjanjuk served as, at Sobibor, then justice demands that he be punished approx, proprietly. For not

1088
01:46:42,777 --> 01:46:52,720
resisting the orders that he received. Justice in this case will also send an important message to anyone

1089
01:46:52,720 --> 01:47:02,568
who cont, contemplates or repels to carry out genocide today and in the future. Indeed my survival means

1090
01:47:02,568 --> 01:47:11,943
very little if Hitler’s legacy of genocide goes on. Or lives on. At Sobibor we did not only fight

1091
01:47:11,943 --> 01:47:21,507
for, for our lives and for revenge. Up, (?) or, or lives and for revenge, we also fought for a better

1092
01:47:21,507 --> 01:47:31,072
tomorrow. A better day, a better future, a world without racism and a world without genocide. My life

1093
01:47:31,072 --> 01:47:41,015
and the life of my five children and fifteen grandchildren are part of this better world. But even though

1094
01:47:41,015 --> 01:47:50,484
I helped to destroy the Sobibor of the Germans others have build new Sobibors. The systematic murder

1095
01:47:50,484 --> 01:48:00,049
of innocent human beings continues even in the 21st century. Genocide still occurs in parts of Africa

1096
01:48:00,049 --> 01:48:09,518
where hundreds of thousands of human beings have been murdered in recent years only because of their

1097
01:48:09,518 --> 01:48:19,461
race. I think you have it there already. [turns page] As peaceful people and human beings we must condemn

1098
01:48:19,461 --> 01:48:29,120
these acts just as we condemn Hitler’s over sixty years ago. Of course we hope that our condemnation

1099
01:48:29,120 --> 01:48:38,969
will stop hatred and genocide. But at Sobibor we learned that sometimes we must defend ourselves against

1100
01:48:38,969 --> 01:48:48,343
the Hitlers of the, of the, of the, of the, our generation. Not just to make speeches and hope that

1101
01:48:48,343 --> 01:48:58,097
somebody else is listening. Just as I did in Sobibor, all of us must (?) or hope in our fighting spirit

1102
01:48:58,097 --> 01:49:07,756
to preserve both our lives and the lives of our fellow human beings. We cannot continue to abandon our

1103
01:49:07,756 --> 01:49:17,510
fellow human beings in their time of need. Sobibor stands of, forever as a warning of what happens when

1104
01:49:17,510 --> 01:49:25,559
we follow, we allow barbarism to grow out of control. I have more but it’s, it’s-

1105
01:49:25,370 --> 01:49:30,570
When did you start going back to Sobibor?

1106
01:49:31,230 --> 01:49:31,700
Huh?

1107
01:49:31,700 --> 01:49:34,260
When did you go back the first time to Sobibor?

1108
01:49:34,260 --> 01:49:42,105
I went back eh when I, we made a we made a documentary film Hunt for stolen war treasures. With

1109
01:49:42,105 --> 01:49:49,950
Michael York, from England. We went to, to look for these treasures, because I wa, I my brother

1110
01:49:49,950 --> 01:49:57,878
told me to put some, hid some, hide some jewelry in jars. In case we survive, you have something

1111
01:49:57,878 --> 01:50:05,888
to live from. So I, a few days before the uprising I took a big jar from the mother from Holland,

1112
01:50:05,888 --> 01:50:13,733
you know, I put in jewel, eh, diamonds, rubies and emeralds, maybe a million dollars. And I put

1113
01:50:13,733 --> 01:50:21,496
it underneath, by a tree. Maybe I, eh, by the, a couple feet low but they made, they made a f,

1114
01:50:21,496 --> 01:50:29,506
they made a film Hunt for stolen war treasures and some of the participants they were looking for

1115
01:50:29,506 --> 01:50:37,434
a trail from paintings, all kinds of things. But my part on the documentary what they showed all

1116
01:50:37,434 --> 01:50:45,527
over the world, was the best. I got, I, I, I got a review of the best, that the, the producer told

1117
01:50:45,527 --> 01:50:53,372
me. We went to and we took some people that went, it was under communism yet and we were hi, we

1118
01:50:53,372 --> 01:51:01,300
were looking, we are looking for the trees, where I have hidden the, older pine trees, you know,

1119
01:51:01,300 --> 01:51:09,310
after, after the, after the uprising they brought eh, they brought eh, some prisoners from Belzec

1120
01:51:09,310 --> 01:51:17,073
to destroy the, the Sobibor and they plant, and they, eh, and they planted eh pine trees. So I

1121
01:51:17,073 --> 01:51:24,836
was counting the, the branches. Because every year is a branch. And I figured, I, it’s no so

1122
01:51:24,836 --> 01:51:28,800
many branches that will mean this is a new tree.

1123
01:51:28,800 --> 01:51:29,140
Yes

1124
01:51:29,140 --> 01:51:37,873
If it’s more branches, that’s an old tree. But the same time I said if we find it, the, the Germans,

1125
01:51:37,873 --> 01:51:46,439
with the Poles, eh, eh, the communist will take it away. But eh we couldn’t find anything. So I made

1126
01:51:46,439 --> 01:51:55,088
a statement, this the, the old ter, the old terrain changed. Most of the, most often I think that they,

1127
01:51:55,088 --> 01:52:04,158
the Poles, they, they, they, they were digging, they took everything out. But, but if, if we find something,

1128
01:52:04,158 --> 01:52:12,724
this this eh, this, be, eh, if, if, if there is something, this, it belongs to the 250,000 people that

1129
01:52:12,724 --> 01:52:21,121
perished. And we left. And then, then we went we went to to Izbica to the cemetery. So we came after

1130
01:52:21,121 --> 01:52:29,519
Izbica in the cemetery we were shocked. All skeletons, all bones, all, all, all, all, all, all over.

1131
01:52:29,519 --> 01:52:37,833
A Polish guy, I was holding a skeleton, she said, this could be your mother, when they, were shot.

1132
01:52:37,833 --> 01:52:46,566
She was shot here. I was very, very, I was very emotional. And they may filmed it. This when they showed

1133
01:52:46,566 --> 01:52:55,300
it all over the world, I got, I got, they call me, I got letter, telegrams you know? About that episode.

1134
01:52:55,300 --> 01:53:03,530
I took, and I took that skeleton and I took some bones, I made a package and I figured I’ll take

1135
01:53:03,530 --> 01:53:11,844
it to to eh, to, to New York, and gave it eh, eh a religious burial, you know, all the human bones.

1136
01:53:11,844 --> 01:53:20,325
And when I came to Frankfurt I went through the machine a young guy, he went, oh, and he want to call

1137
01:53:20,325 --> 01:53:28,639
the police. That I killed somebody, you know, the bones. You know, I said to him, listen, we would,

1138
01:53:28,639 --> 01:53:37,205
I got emotional, I said I was crying, I said this is my family. And he, and, and, and he got emotional

1139
01:53:37,205 --> 01:53:45,518
too. He said he can loose his job, but he’s going to let me through with it, because he knows how

1140
01:53:45,518 --> 01:53:53,832
I feel and I took, I took the package to New York. In New York they didn’t check me and I, and I,

1141
01:53:53,832 --> 01:54:02,398
we took ten people, we made a minyan, you know? And we made a religious, a religious ceremony and the,

1142
01:54:02,398 --> 01:54:10,796
and there were have a, we, every city in New York has (?) from Izbica, they have a little, they have

1143
01:54:10,796 --> 01:54:10,880
a

1144
01:54:10,880 --> 01:54:10,880
Circle

1145
01:54:10,880 --> 01:54:15,229
(?) too and we bu, we gave it a burial. This is a very good, so it’s, everything is in the

1146
01:54:15,229 --> 01:54:19,390
book. So you have my book and your books knowing everything, we have two books the same.

1147
01:54:19,390 --> 01:54:23,960
No, mine is not going to be a book. Eh

1148
01:54:26,430 --> 01:54:27,470
Huh?

1149
01:54:31,350 --> 01:54:33,520
This is not going to be a book, eh I’m thinking

1150
01:54:33,520 --> 01:54:38,230
I think you have, you have, you have already too much information. So eh, it’s eh (?)

1151
01:54:38,230 --> 01:54:39,240
So what did you learn

1152
01:54:39,240 --> 01:54:39,240
Huh?

1153
01:54:39,240 --> 01:54:45,977
no, I’m, I’m going to back to Demjanjuk, I want to look for a good way

1154
01:54:45,977 --> 01:54:52,350
to finish, eh you went to Munich to testify, I have seen you. You were

1155
01:54:52,350 --> 01:54:52,740
Demjanjuk

1156
01:54:52,740 --> 01:54:56,690
very, very strong

1157
01:54:56,690 --> 01:54:58,150
you, you were on the, you were at the trial?

1158
01:54:58,150 --> 01:54:58,150
Yes, I was sitting upstairs

1159
01:54:58,150 --> 01:55:03,742
You saw Demjanjuk, he’s laying like a, he is laying, he makes believe that he’s

1160
01:55:03,742 --> 01:55:09,200
sick with the, with the, with the, eh, with eh baseball cap on his face, you know

1161
01:55:09,430 --> 01:55:09,870
Yes

1162
01:55:09,870 --> 01:55:16,425
and eh and he, he he, I, I mentioned in the, mine in mine eh, to the,

1163
01:55:16,425 --> 01:55:22,220
to the judges, that he didn’t come to Sobibor for vacation.

1164
01:55:22,220 --> 01:55:22,400
No

1165
01:55:22,400 --> 01:55:30,283
He came for a purpose. He came to commit genocide. Beating and shooting. So

1166
01:55:30,283 --> 01:55:38,167
even if I don’t recognize his face, but if he was there, he participated.

1167
01:55:38,167 --> 01:55:45,210
In all the, in all the atrocities and he should be, he should be eh

1168
01:55:45,210 --> 01:55:45,430
Punished

1169
01:55:45,430 --> 01:55:46,910
penalized accordingly.

1170
01:55:46,910 --> 01:55:46,910
Yes.

1171
01:55:46,910 --> 01:55:55,501
So any, any penalty what he will get, would, it wouldn’t be enough. But what, what Sobibor, what Sobibor

1172
01:55:55,501 --> 01:56:03,930
stands for, what, what, what, what happened in Sobibor. Every day in Sobibor was a challenge to survive.

1173
01:56:03,930 --> 01:56:12,116
You know. And if, be a witness to, to what happened in Sobibor and to to be able to to survive and to

1174
01:56:12,116 --> 01:56:18,600
tell the story, and I hope mine stories will, will contribute to a better world.

1175
01:56:18,600 --> 01:56:20,170
Thank you Philip, thank you.

1176
01:56:20,740 --> 01:56:26,260
You ha, you have, you have t