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This is an interview with Esther Raab and it’s made in New Jersey. Hello Esther.
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Hi.
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Which year were you born and where?
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In which year?
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Yes.
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In 1922.
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In Chelm?
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In Chelm.
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In Poland?
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Yes.
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So, can you talk about your family? Do you want me to ask questions?
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Whatever is convenient for you.
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It is most convenient that you talk about your family house.
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I had a very nice family. We were two children, which for Europe was unusual. [laughs]
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Yes, it was.
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And my father was, I would say, comfortable.
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He was a businessman, my father, and we had a good life.
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And I have here pictures from our house. We were very comfortable.
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I would love to make a photo of those pictures later, if you agree?
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Yes.
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Later, not now.
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Yes, sure.
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Okay. Did you have a brother or sister?
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A brother.[points finger] I still have a brother.
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Good for you.
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He was born in 1917.
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And he's still there.
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Yes.
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Did he also go through Sobibor?
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No. When they took him to Sobibor, and they shot my father on the march
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to Sobibor, he like landed on top of him and came home alive.
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That is a miracle. It was a miracle. Absolutely.
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So let’s go back to your family house.
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Yes.
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It is a shocking story.
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Yes. I have the family house picture, everything. Later this would go to the gentile
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who saved me my brother and would have given his life to save my father.
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That is after you got out of Sobibor? After the escape?
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No, right there. My brother didn’t go to Sobibor. He escaped from Staw-Nowosiulki, that was
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a small Arbeiterlager. And he escaped right away. He went to a gentile who was a very good friend,
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he was with my father like this. He went there and he took him in and kept him.
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Unbelievable.
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Yes.
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But let us go to you. You were eighteen already when the war broke out.
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How old?
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Eighteen?
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Younger, you know. Seventeen.
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Seventeen.
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Yes.
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Did you go to school?
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Yes. I finished public school and then I went to a Catholic school.
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Catholic?!
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Yes, my mother felt that I got a better education in
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a Catholic school and they were very nice to me.
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So, was your family still religious?
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What?
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Was your family religious?
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Very religious.
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Very religious, but still...
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Yes, my mother always wore... A sheitel.
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A sheitel. Yes, very religious. But my mother liked the crowd in
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the Catholic school better than the crowd in the public school.
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Because they were better educated?
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They thought you would get different manners and you were with nice kids, that’s why they did it.
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Sure. I understand. But before you went to the Catholic school,
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had you been seeing a lot of Catholic girls, or was it new?
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Friends in the street.
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Everybody was friends.
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Yes, in the street! And my mother felt that I got Hebrew education in the
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afternoon everyday. And she felt that the company that I got there was much
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better for me. First of all, only girls. That’s what she felt .
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And at home she kept a very strict Jewish household?
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Yes. I told you, my father wore a...
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Beard.
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...beard and my mother a sheitel and she came from a very Jewish, religious
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family. But she figured, she has one daughter, why not give her the best?
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Sure. I understand.
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You know, people had houses full with maybe five or six children
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who had to wear a uniform in this school. She felt it was...
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Better.
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...better.
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Sure.
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Because I had a Jewish education.
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Were you prepared as a girl for your future to have a Jewish household?
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Yes.
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Can you tell about it?
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Yes.
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What did they teach you?
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To eat kosher.
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Which is complicated. [laughs]
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Yes. And to have nice friends, it didn’t matter they were Jewish or not. I don’t
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think my mother made a big deal. If I brought non-Jewish friends, they would eat at
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our table, because mostly they were poor, you know? And we had plenty to eat [laughs],
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which was a problem. We lived very comfortably in Chelm. My father had a mill with partners
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and he was a comfortable man. He had a lot of non-Jewish customers.
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And did you have close family living near?
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Yes. In the same city.
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Chelm was a pretty big city at that time?
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Yes, I think it had maybe more than ten thousand Jews. They had a Hebrew high school,
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a Besiako which was a Jewish-paid school, so I went there after public school.
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I used to go there for two hours so as to learn Hebrew, and my mother had the dream that
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maybe I would go to Krakow, to Besiako, and there maybe find a husband or whatever.
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Were you talking about what was happening to Jews in Germany? Were you aware of that?
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We didn’t know that much, no. We felt that Hitler wasn’t so popular in my young life.
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So, when did you feel the danger started coming? It was first the Russians who came, of course.
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Yes. My father had one customer, a gentile. He was one of his biggest customers, whom he had
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helped a lot, he had escaped from Russia. My father met him on the street and he said, what are
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you doing here, you live in an attic, how do you make a living? Do you have acquaintances? He
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said, if someone lent me half a sack of flour, I could bake bread in the basement and make a
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living. My father said, I’ll give you half a sack of flour, don’t worry. And to make this
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story short, that man became the richest in our city and never forgot my father.
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He became a righteous?
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What did he become?
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A baker.
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Okay.
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He opened three stores and had a lot of people working for him and never disappointed my father with
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any behaviour. He considered my father a most honest and trustworthy man, they became real friends,
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and the main thing, they respected each other. Those are the people that saved our lives.
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When did you feel the danger for the first time coming?
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I didn’t, because we lived in a German neighbourhood and I had friends, rich German girls,
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who went to school with me. We still did our homework together when a brother (of one of them)
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already put on a uniform, but when he walked by our window... "niks Jude, niks Jude".
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But it started. At one stage it started, when did it start?
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What do you mean?
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I mean, at one stage the Germans came.
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Oh, it came and my mother remembered the First World War and she said, you sit at home, and you
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do your own thing and you go on with your business, and the Germans are the nicest people.
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But they came.
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When they came, the first day we knew right away.
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Why?
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I’ll show you where we lived, across the street were all Germans, Catholics who worked in the industry.
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They had a lot of industry in the town and the girls all were my friends. My brother and that one
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brother were also friends. They had a beautiful home, I don’t know how many rooms, about ten, twelve
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rooms. But we could come in there and they treated us well. There was also one house occupied by one
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family, a big house. We had a big mental institution in Chelm, the biggest in Europe. And they used
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to take care of the mentally ill, so they gave my father the business.
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It was a good life?
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Yes.
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So how did it change?
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When they came in and my mother said, everybody is going to sit down and let’s
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not go out, because we read the papers already. But we couldn’t believe that they
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could be such a mean people, that they had something against honest people.
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So that was a shock?
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A big shock. And most of the Jews from Chelm, like the working class or the poor people
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went away, because before we had had the Russians and they encouraged them to go away
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to Russia and to communism. But my father was far from a communist.
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Be careful with your hand and the microphone please.
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What?
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Okay, it's fine. You have your hand on the microphone.
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Like this?
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Yes, like that, you can’t hear. That's not good.
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No?
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This way it's better. Now it's fantastic. So, the poor people went with the Russians?
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Yes, because of the work. Poland wasn’t anti-Semitic, but my father was in the business with
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all those Polacks and he didn’t have any grudge against them or hard feelings. He did his business,
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he paid his bills and they paid their bills. And we lived one next to another.
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So he never even discussed to go East with the Russians?
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No.
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And then the Germans came. When did you see them for the first time?
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They were probably prepared for a bad time, but not that bad. My father used to go every
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day to the Polacks. We had a lot of stores that he supplied, so we never felt anything.
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And then, can you tell me how it changed, what changed and how?
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First of all they organized all the Jews for Friday morning in the middle of the town.
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Then they started marching them. Towards another city. We didn’t know what they were
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doing and why. On that march they killed my father. My brother fell on top of him and got
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wounded. We saw it was not a joke. People weren't just talking, they meant it.
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He came back to the house, your brother?
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Yes!
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Wounded?
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No, he went to a gentile farmer who took care of my brother’s wound. Then he let us know where he
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had landed. Near the Russian border. My mother went and got him. My mother was a young woman.
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Sure, and then?
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So we had lost my father. All those gentiles who had dealt with my father
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continued, but in a careful way. But this gentile who saved our lives didn’t
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give up, because he knew what my father had done for him.
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So what did he do?
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He used to buy and give my father the profit. And then he said a couple of times, he used to
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call him a Brumtje. My father’s name was Abraham. He said, I think they took away a Brumtje
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and that couldn’t succeed. But the friendship had been for so many years, he would have done
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whatever he could. If the Germans wouldn’t kill my father, he would still be a rich man. He
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had become a rich man. He had a house full of children, many children, and he never carried that
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grudge, that German grudge. He felt that nothing good would come out of it.
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Can you tell me the story how he saved you and your mother, can
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you tell me the story of how he saved your life? [louder]
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Yes. He helped us. How, an awful lot.
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Tell me.
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When the Nazis started taking over, he sent bread and flour during summer. He had bought a farm,
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he sent us bed stables. So we didn’t feel things. We felt if we have a problem, we can go to
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him. But then they put us in a ghetto. You know? That wasn’t good. But he always helped us. And
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you know, if a man helps you with a loaf of bread, even we were only two children...
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So you were put in the ghetto of Chelm?
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Yes.
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How did that go, how did that happen?
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I want to show you we had a beautiful private house.
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Yes, you’ll show me later, yes.
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We lived in a very fancy neighbourhood when they decided to make a ghetto. So they put us
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with another family, two children, us, and my mother, my father wasn’t alive, all in one
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room with the kids. And my mother couldn’t sleep because they had small children and the
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poor things were hungry and they cried the whole time. So we moved, we had family in Siedliszcze,
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not far from us, and they said we should come and stay with them.
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In Liske? Siedliszcze. Siedliszcze, yes?
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And we moved there. My mother said one of our uncles had a bakery, she could work in the
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bakery and I could help with the children. It would maybe be easier than being in that house,
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but you know, I think the neighbours didn’t like it that we moved. Had to move.
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Why?
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They were so accustomed to us. Across the street lived a German family. The girl went to school with
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me. To high school. I went to business school. And they just didn’t like it. I don’t think our
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neighbours would say no when asked, do you want the Terners, our name was Terner, to live here? You
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know, I used to knit for them, I don’t know how to say, they didn’t abuse us. They just said good
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morning to you and maybe deep down they had some thoughts, but we didn’t feel it.
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Who told your mother that your father had been killed? [louder]
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My brother came back.
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And how was your mother?
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My mother's whole world was gone. She had lost her husband and she felt they had had
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a very good life, you know, together. We weren’t poor, we lived in a comfortable house,
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my brother had a room, I had a room. In Europe they didn’t have it like this. In a
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beautiful neighbourhood. All the people had houses, not just rooms, houses!
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So you moved to Siedliszcze?
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Yes. And there we started going to work. My father wasn’t alive anymore. My mother
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was very upset and we had to protect her from going to work, because she wasn’t able
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to work, like walking miles a day. I’m making it short, my mother wanted to make it
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easier and less responsible for us, because we used to take her away into the woods
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so they wouldn’t take her to work. Because she couldn’t have lasted.
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There was forced labour in Siedliszcze?
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Right away. Yes. Not in our city. But all over the countryside. Right away. My mother didn’t
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want to be a burden to the two of us. So she went to the police and asked to be shot. And
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they did her the favour. She felt that the two of us, or maybe one, would survive.
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So she went to the Germans?
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00:33:32,570 --> 00:33:42,680
Yes! The Polish and German police were still the same. And they shot her.
236
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,060
And what did they do with her?
237
00:33:46,060 --> 00:33:49,953
We buried her there. Because we went to work and they got her, I mean, they didn’t
238
00:33:49,953 --> 00:33:53,523
get her, she went in. They threw her at the end of the woods and when we came
239
00:33:53,523 --> 00:33:56,490
they’d buried her there. Not that we found remains of her. No.
240
00:34:12,140 --> 00:34:17,240
You didn’t? But you gave her a service?
241
00:34:19,890 --> 00:34:20,520
Yes.
242
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:20,780
As if she were buried? Yes.
244
00:34:20,780 --> 00:34:20,780
That’s beautiful.
245
00:34:20,780 --> 00:34:21,140
[sighs] What could you do?
246
00:34:21,140 --> 00:34:22,180
No, it’s beautiful. It’s beautiful if you don’t have the body, still to make the service.
247
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:50,210
Yes. I mean, they didn’t burn her or anything like what we saw later, you know, in Sobibor.
248
00:34:50,210 --> 00:34:57,410
And so you were alone with your brother then?
249
00:34:57,410 --> 00:35:04,878
I was alone with my brother. They moved us to a section
250
00:35:04,878 --> 00:35:11,260
and we got like a room and a kitchen. You know.
251
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:13,000
Still in Siedliszcze?
252
00:35:14,530 --> 00:35:27,757
Yes. We could go to work but we didn’t. We missed our mother. You know, at that time I
253
00:35:27,757 --> 00:35:41,435
think we felt that everybody is gonna go, sooner or later. And we just figured that, maybe,
254
00:35:41,435 --> 00:35:53,460
my mother was better off. That she was a smart woman and went to ask to be shot.
255
00:35:53,460 --> 00:36:01,070
What kind of work did you do then?
256
00:36:01,260 --> 00:36:27,300
I would mostly pull weeds and clean woods and all that.
257
00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:28,970
Hard manual labour.
258
00:36:28,970 --> 00:36:29,950
Yes.
259
00:36:29,950 --> 00:36:30,960
But you managed.
260
00:36:33,530 --> 00:36:44,665
Yes. We had still some valuables my mother gave to us. You know? And
261
00:36:44,665 --> 00:36:55,310
from the farmers we could buy bread or a little meat or whatever.
262
00:36:55,580 --> 00:36:57,740
You had enough to eat?
263
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,990
In the beginning, yes. Not in Sobibor. [laughs]
264
00:37:02,990 --> 00:37:05,790
No, of course not [laughs]. How long did that last? I guess this is ’42, or ’41? Is this 1942?
265
00:37:17,470 --> 00:37:18,774
It was already ’41. Then they made the ghetto and they didn’t know what to do, those Germans.
266
00:37:18,774 --> 00:37:20,120
I mean, they were miserable. They took us, they took young people away and they used them for manual
267
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:21,452
labour. You know? They had a lot to build, they had a lot to construct, they came to Poland. Poland
268
00:37:21,452 --> 00:37:22,743
wasn’t a poor country. Plenty to eat. Plenty mills and plenty meat. They were poor in Germany.
269
00:37:22,743 --> 00:37:23,820
Then they started chasing us from one ghetto to another ghetto, to other cities.
270
00:38:41,190 --> 00:38:45,790
You were chased from one ghetto to another. Where did you go, can you remember?
271
00:38:47,300 --> 00:38:55,418
Sure! I was in Siedliszcze, then they made a camp near Siedliszcze and we used to go to work from
272
00:38:55,418 --> 00:39:03,621
there. They really didn’t make such a big use of our labour. It was like a game for them. It was
273
00:39:03,621 --> 00:39:11,740
a game. Meanwhile they checked you, things you were carrying with you, and they would find a nice
274
00:39:11,740 --> 00:39:19,190
watch, a nice dress, a pair of shoes, and take it off, you know? Whatever they could use.
275
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,780
So, after Siedliszcze you went where?
276
00:39:52,150 --> 00:39:54,740
Siedliszcze they made like Judenrein, you know? Yes.
278
00:39:54,740 --> 00:40:13,128
They took us to Staw-Nowosiulki camp. But nothing special. Just going to work. They
279
00:40:13,128 --> 00:40:30,630
weren't really using those people’s talents, just moving them here and there. They just moved you around.
281
00:40:36,810 --> 00:40:47,222
Yes. So I came there. Then we found out that they built camps were going
282
00:40:47,222 --> 00:40:57,346
to destroy young people. They’ld keep them as long as they could and
283
00:40:57,346 --> 00:41:05,590
then... I think they wanted to keep themselves busy, too.
284
00:41:09,850 --> 00:41:11,800
What do you mean with keeping themselves busy?
285
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:23,480
Not to go to the Front. They were very afraid of the Russians.
286
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:23,980
Yes, they were.
287
00:41:23,980 --> 00:41:32,342
And they figured, as long as they can manipulate here, they won’t
288
00:41:32,342 --> 00:41:40,080
[microphone is moved] Then the SS came. The SS were miserable.
289
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:47,600
Worse than the Wehrmacht? Till then it was the Wehrmacht?
290
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,772
For a while, here. And I don’t think that the Wehrmacht
291
00:41:51,772 --> 00:41:55,140
was so bad. They decided to kill all the Jews.
292
00:42:02,990 --> 00:42:06,600
So what happened when the SS came? What was the difference?
293
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:28,480
The SS were schooled (educated) and they sent people to the camps. They opened up the camps, the SS.
294
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:36,870
And you knew that those camps were being opened? You knew about those camps before you were there?
295
00:42:41,490 --> 00:42:44,650
Oh, sure, you didn’t have no choice, you had to go.
296
00:42:44,650 --> 00:42:49,770
But you knew that those camps existed.
297
00:42:49,770 --> 00:42:53,670
The death camps.
298
00:42:53,670 --> 00:42:57,350
Yes. So what happened to you?
299
00:42:57,350 --> 00:43:16,189
They took me from Siedliszcze and I went to a camp. They picked me out to work. They asked, who knows
300
00:43:16,189 --> 00:43:35,776
how to sow, whatever they asked I knew. I knew, but I figured, if you have a trade you maybe can survive.
301
00:43:35,776 --> 00:43:54,429
Me and my brother were in a smaller camp like cleaning wooded areas. In the middle of the night they
302
00:43:54,429 --> 00:44:13,082
rounded us up and we knew we were going to a death camp. But we never believed they were taking live
303
00:44:13,082 --> 00:44:31,922
people, useful people. We first came in a smaller camp and then they took us to - where did they take
304
00:44:31,922 --> 00:44:50,203
us? To a new camp, where there were Jews. We used to go to work every day. I don’t know why they
305
00:44:50,203 --> 00:45:08,483
needed that work. We were there about two months and then they started to send us to Sobibor. They
306
00:45:08,483 --> 00:45:26,577
took out eight girls and we thought the rest were destroyed. We felt, as long as our clothes last
307
00:45:26,577 --> 00:45:45,790
and we can sell our belongings, we gonna survive. We thought, maybe the Americans will come and survive
308
00:45:45,790 --> 00:45:56,049
(rescue) us, you know? There they took out eight girls.
309
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,130
In order to take care of the Germans?
310
00:45:59,280 --> 00:45:59,690
Yes.
311
00:45:59,690 --> 00:46:01,730
And that was your job?
312
00:46:03,450 --> 00:46:06,710
No, I didn’t take care, they didn’t.
313
00:46:06,710 --> 00:46:08,600
What did you do?
314
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:10,356
I started sorting luggage, clothes which were brought. Then we realized that all those people
315
00:46:10,356 --> 00:46:12,037
were getting killed. We saw there was no way that the Germans would lose the war so fast,
316
00:46:12,037 --> 00:46:13,699
that we should survive. The young used to bring like the leftovers from the little towns
317
00:46:13,699 --> 00:46:15,455
and cities into the death camps. We heard that they had opened up Auschwitz, but you didn’t
318
00:46:15,455 --> 00:46:16,740
have no choice. There was no choice. Just to go by the day and pray.
319
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:23,790
You still prayed?
320
00:47:23,790 --> 00:47:24,650
Yes!
321
00:47:28,190 --> 00:47:28,760
A lot?
322
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:43,299
You see, I have a ring here, from Sobibor. From an older man, an artist in woodwork. Unbelievable.
323
00:47:43,299 --> 00:47:57,542
I asked him and he told me, he knew that I wouldn’t eat bread at Pesach, you know? So he said,
324
00:47:57,542 --> 00:48:11,785
could you organize a few potatoes. And I said, I will try, but you know, to steal five potatoes,
325
00:48:11,785 --> 00:48:26,027
you have to give your hat. So I said, I will try. And I organized eight potatoes. And he gave me
326
00:48:26,027 --> 00:48:37,600
that ring. He said, that ring will save your life. And I’m still wearing it.
327
00:48:42,940 --> 00:48:43,260
Wonderful. So you were allowed to have a ring in Sobibor? No.
329
00:48:47,010 --> 00:48:50,310
But how did you do that, then?
330
00:48:50,310 --> 00:48:52,310
I just rolled it in my... Bra.
332
00:48:52,310 --> 00:48:58,940
Yes, and I carried it.
333
00:48:58,940 --> 00:48:59,230
Of course.
334
00:48:59,230 --> 00:49:16,532
You know, you either became religious, or not religious at all. But it’s easier to believe that some
335
00:49:16,532 --> 00:49:33,496
miracles gonna happen, or maybe the Germans will drop dead. Even now, you don’t wanna be dead, but
336
00:49:33,496 --> 00:49:50,969
then you have to give up. I came to Sobibor before Pesach, and there came a cousin of mine to a rabbi's
337
00:49:50,969 --> 00:50:08,102
son. From Izbica. And he said, we are not gonna remain here. We have to kill them all before. I said,
338
00:50:08,102 --> 00:50:26,423
what a big talk, a rabbi’s son gives you a sermon, you know, but they used that time, changed our inmates,
339
00:50:26,423 --> 00:50:43,726
you know. If a transport came in, they picked out new people every time. They told us that the war was
340
00:50:43,726 --> 00:51:01,029
coming to an end, one day you had to lose. You're gonna go into the frying pan anyway, so let’s try.
341
00:51:01,029 --> 00:51:18,162
Then, a few weeks later, they started bringing Russian soldiers whom they'd caught. They were killing
342
00:51:18,162 --> 00:51:35,296
us, too. And the young men figured out, maybe the war isn’t so good for them, you know, and let’s
343
00:51:35,296 --> 00:51:52,599
organize. We started to think, the war didn’t go because they didn’t send out so much clothes from
344
00:51:52,599 --> 00:52:09,562
the people. They didn’t, because they were afraid that on the way they’re gonna get caught. With
345
00:52:09,562 --> 00:52:20,249
us inside it wasn’t so strict, they got used to us, you know.
346
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:21,090
yes?
347
00:52:21,090 --> 00:52:21,750
Huh?
348
00:52:21,980 --> 00:52:22,310
Ja?
349
00:52:22,310 --> 00:52:42,720
They figured, we had them in our hands so that they cannot do nothing to us. And we did.
350
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:43,680
So it was really changing?
351
00:52:45,660 --> 00:53:01,098
Yes. I don’t know if the Germans wanted the change. But they were so organized
352
00:53:01,098 --> 00:53:15,958
with the SS and the SA. I guess everybody did what he wanted to do. Then they
353
00:53:15,958 --> 00:53:30,625
brought a lot of women from Russia.They just let them live and they didn’t
354
00:53:30,625 --> 00:53:43,170
go to work, maybe they used them for different reasons, you know?
355
00:53:43,170 --> 00:53:45,410
They imported a group of Russian women into Sobibor?
356
00:53:46,750 --> 00:53:53,010
They built a barracks for them and their convenience.
357
00:53:54,380 --> 00:53:56,340
Were those women Jewish?
358
00:53:56,340 --> 00:54:05,570
No. Russian women. They wouldn’t dare.
359
00:54:05,570 --> 00:54:07,820
So there was a kind of a brothel in Sobibor?
360
00:54:11,110 --> 00:54:12,890
Yes.
361
00:54:15,790 --> 00:54:17,390
Gosh, nobody told me.
362
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:27,500
Oh yes. They put up two, they wouldn’t take a Jewish woman.
363
00:54:27,500 --> 00:54:28,240
It would be Rassenschande.
364
00:54:31,050 --> 00:54:43,820
That’s right. And they called me, he was there, they found my name. Demjanjuk?
367
00:54:43,820 --> 00:54:51,260
Demjanjuk. He was in that brothel?
368
00:54:52,490 --> 00:55:05,732
He wasn’t in that brothel. But during the days they worked in a Russian camp between
369
00:55:05,732 --> 00:55:17,590
Sobibor and Piaski. They used to bring those men by train here. I remember...
370
00:55:17,590 --> 00:55:18,320
Well, explain to me.
371
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:18,650
Demjanjuk.
372
00:55:18,650 --> 00:55:19,382
Better, please. I don’t understand the full story. There
373
00:55:19,382 --> 00:55:20,090
was another camp with Russians, and where was Demjanjuk?
374
00:55:29,300 --> 00:55:30,390
What did you say?
375
00:55:36,590 --> 00:55:40,880
There were those Russian women, and you say, Demjanjuk was...
376
00:55:42,590 --> 00:55:55,335
They brought Russian women and they built barracks in our yard for them,
377
00:55:55,335 --> 00:56:07,903
not the rich ones, and they used to serve them, you know, and they used
378
00:56:07,903 --> 00:56:19,410
to live there. When the war started to go bad, they brought in...
379
00:56:19,410 --> 00:56:20,670
Demjanjuk? Whom did they bring?
380
00:56:23,940 --> 00:56:26,370
Russian women, too.
381
00:56:27,010 --> 00:56:27,230
But what was Demjanjuk's role in all this? I didn’t understand that.
382
00:56:35,570 --> 00:56:35,800
Who?
383
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:36,740
Demjanjuk, what did he do?
384
00:56:36,740 --> 00:56:38,242
He was in that camp between Sobibor and Piaski. He was trained there and probably he helped. I worked
385
00:56:38,242 --> 00:56:39,760
in the Waffenkammer, it’s in my book, I used to clean the bullets which they used to shoot children.
386
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:41,366
They brought Demjanjuk, it was in the papers. [laughs] I was there, not that I gave an interview to anybody,
387
00:56:41,366 --> 00:56:42,854
and he was there during the day they had training. They had shortages in the army, they were already
388
00:56:42,854 --> 00:56:44,386
confused, like they said, and they didn’t have transport. Demjanjuk used to come to the Waffenkammer,
389
00:56:44,386 --> 00:56:45,948
you know? We used to clean the bullets and put them into the guns and we cleaned out the guns, when there
390
00:56:45,948 --> 00:56:47,020
were no transports. And they used to take him away to kill the children.
391
00:58:40,490 --> 00:58:43,260
Because children were killed by bullets? Oh yes.
393
00:58:43,580 --> 00:58:44,870
Not by gas?
394
00:58:44,870 --> 00:58:51,480
Don’t forget that I was almost the last one there.
395
00:58:54,620 --> 00:58:58,000
So how did you land in the Waffenkammer?
396
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:04,550
In the Waffenkammer? When they didn’t have no transports, they didn’t have... Anything to sort. I understand. Where was your brother by then?
398
00:59:15,740 --> 00:59:23,099
My brother went to a farmer, he jumped away before they took us to Sobibor. My brother jumped
399
00:59:23,099 --> 00:59:30,221
from the barracks and went to Matsemiok, to that gentile. Who took him in. I didn’t know
400
00:59:30,221 --> 00:59:36,710
that he survived, you know. I forgot he’d gone. And then, when I escaped from...
401
00:59:59,480 --> 00:59:59,610
Sobibor.
402
00:59:59,610 --> 01:00:14,163
..the camp, the night before we had planned the escape and the Russian soldiers were with us, you
403
01:00:14,163 --> 01:00:29,167
know. We were inmates, maybe a couple of hundreds, that’s all. You know, we weren’t such a mass,
404
01:00:29,167 --> 01:00:43,571
because they stopped it or whatever. We went to sleep and everybody said goodbye and we figured,
405
01:00:43,571 --> 01:00:58,274
what can we do, they will take us. That was already towards the end. I went to sleep, and I dreamt
406
01:00:58,274 --> 01:01:12,678
my mother came to the camp and she said, you go to Matsemiok and there you survive. From Sobibor
407
01:01:12,678 --> 01:01:27,081
to Matsemiok would take me a day or a few hours. But as I climbed the fence I got a bullet here.
408
01:01:27,081 --> 01:01:41,785
And I came to a farmer and I told him, showed him. They knew already, good for you, you killed all
409
01:01:41,785 --> 01:01:56,639
of them, you know? Then I told him, he said I’ll heal it for you. I killed a pig. An old man kept
410
01:01:56,639 --> 01:02:11,793
me twelve days, I didn’t tell him where I wanted to go, I told him the opposite because I was still
411
01:02:11,793 --> 01:02:26,196
afraid. He said, don’t worry, my son will take you out into the woods. It took me two weeks to
412
01:02:26,196 --> 01:02:40,900
get there, to Matsemiok. I came into the barn, you know, I knew his lair and I came into the barn.
413
01:02:40,900 --> 01:02:55,304
There was me and two friends. We came into the barn and I said, here we’re going to wait until
414
01:02:55,304 --> 01:03:09,857
Mantsemiok. I asked around, is he alive, and they said, after two weeks my brother was sitting on
415
01:03:09,857 --> 01:03:19,159
top on the world and I was underneath. Waiting for Mantsemiok.
416
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:20,630
And Selma Engel was with you, and Chaim?
417
01:03:21,230 --> 01:03:41,910
No. Samuel Lerer and one of the cooks and a Russian, Abraham, I don’t know anymore. So I lay there
418
01:03:41,910 --> 01:04:00,730
and my brother said I’m a ghost, you know. You wait so long, I made it very fast for you.
419
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:05,490
You did, yes, incredibly fast. So you knew you were going to escape? You were told to be prepared?
420
01:04:11,260 --> 01:04:23,861
Oh yes! I put on my uniform, I mean, we’ve put on like two pairs of underwear, not everybody in the
421
01:04:23,861 --> 01:04:35,590
camp knew. They told me not to put on many. How many pockets I had, I should have put in sand.
422
01:04:36,740 --> 01:04:37,240
Why?
423
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:52,382
Because if you throw sand in the face you can stick a knife in the stomach. We were trained
424
01:04:52,382 --> 01:05:06,860
that there. The Russians and my cousin, the Polacks killed him. He was outside already.
425
01:05:06,860 --> 01:05:09,530
And he was one of the organizers of the uprising. Yes.
427
01:05:09,530 --> 01:05:10,670
Wasn’t he? Together with Pechersky.
428
01:05:11,550 --> 01:05:12,000
Yes.
429
01:05:15,980 --> 01:05:19,230
So you were really trained for the outbreak? Oh yes!
431
01:05:21,990 --> 01:05:23,240
Tell me about it.
432
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:34,450
I had all pockets full of sand. And they told us, if you
433
01:05:34,450 --> 01:05:44,860
throw sand and he grabs his eyes, you can stick him.
434
01:05:44,860 --> 01:05:47,530
That’s very clever.
435
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:49,100
Yes.
436
01:05:49,100 --> 01:05:56,060
So did you see those Russian women coming?
437
01:05:56,350 --> 01:06:15,060
Yes, the Russian women, sure! They were from us, like my house maybe, they built barracks for them.
438
01:06:15,060 --> 01:06:18,700
Did you have any contact with them?
439
01:06:18,700 --> 01:06:23,194
No. You weren’t allowed. But we could say hi. We all knew how to
440
01:06:23,194 --> 01:06:27,280
speak Russian, but you were very careful, you didn’t know.
441
01:06:40,270 --> 01:06:46,550
You spoke Jiddish in the camp or what language, Polish?
442
01:06:46,550 --> 01:06:49,610
Mostly we talked German.
443
01:06:49,610 --> 01:06:50,010
German?
444
01:06:50,010 --> 01:07:07,940
Yes, because they didn’t like, Was verdrehst Du den Kopf wieder, you know. You had to talk German.
445
01:07:07,940 --> 01:07:14,030
If it’s not too difficult, would you mind to describe a day, a normal day in Sobibor?
446
01:07:14,030 --> 01:07:24,363
We got up in the morning, we had the entrée, you know, and they gave you a cup of
447
01:07:24,363 --> 01:07:34,570
coffee, sometimes you saved a piece of bread from the night time, and you went to
448
01:07:34,570 --> 01:07:44,400
work. The Germans loved to work there. This way they didn’t go to the front.
449
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:50,560
Ja. At that time it was pretty important for the...
450
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:51,160
There were already...
451
01:07:52,840 --> 01:08:00,200
So then you went to work, which was sorting clothes.
452
01:08:01,140 --> 01:08:01,420
Yes.
453
01:08:01,420 --> 01:08:03,310
And then?
454
01:08:03,310 --> 01:08:16,426
And then we got ready, we knew they scared those going on vacation. It wasn't
455
01:08:16,426 --> 01:08:28,350
big, maybe thirty people, men. Germans used to watch us, that’s all. In the sorting place? In the place where you worked?
457
01:08:35,400 --> 01:08:36,510
Yes. And in the evening they used to lock us in.
458
01:08:42,810 --> 01:08:51,030
Were they cruel in the sorting place or was it just working?
459
01:08:51,490 --> 01:09:01,205
The sorting place? We were just working and putting things together, packing
460
01:09:01,205 --> 01:09:11,048
them up neatly to send them away. There used to come a lot of customers. They
461
01:09:11,048 --> 01:09:19,230
probably stole it and used to sell it to those who used to come. But was there any cruelty in the sorting place or was it only outside?
463
01:09:35,660 --> 01:09:40,607
The barracks were used down to the ground and there was no heating or
464
01:09:40,607 --> 01:09:46,559
anything during the winter, you know. In the summer there wasn’t airconditioning,
465
01:09:46,559 --> 01:09:50,360
and I guess those Nazis who had privileges were sent.
466
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:09,630
To Sobibor.
467
01:10:09,630 --> 01:10:15,170
Yes. First of all that was already the end of the war. And second, they felt they lost the war.
468
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:29,910
Okay, you came to your shelter and you found your brother.
469
01:10:29,910 --> 01:10:48,093
Yes. I told him that we were planning already to escape, you know. He said, I had to think that
470
01:10:48,093 --> 01:11:06,660
we are planning an escape and that I escaped and then got a bullet in the head and I was wounded.
471
01:11:06,660 --> 01:11:24,270
And he said, we're not gonna tell Montsiniok that we came with three other people, two other
472
01:11:24,270 --> 01:11:42,454
people. Whatever he’ll give us to eat, you gonna share it. If you could come with two, we are
473
01:11:42,454 --> 01:11:56,810
not gonna send them away. He was there already as long as I was in Sobibor.
474
01:11:56,990 --> 01:11:57,830
Was it a safe place?
475
01:11:57,830 --> 01:12:08,911
He had a farm. Montsiniok was a rich man and he bought a lot of ground and he built a farm
476
01:12:08,911 --> 01:12:19,992
and he felt, you know, it’s a strange country for him and and that’s it. He remembered
477
01:12:19,992 --> 01:12:29,720
my father and he said that he would do anything to save my father’s children.
478
01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:36,870
It’s always the same man you talked about in the beginning?
479
01:12:36,870 --> 01:12:38,040
Yes.
480
01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:41,440
Okay. So you stayed in the barn?
481
01:12:41,670 --> 01:12:54,491
Yes! We stayed almost a year, not a year, eight, nine months we stayed. With my brother,
482
01:12:54,491 --> 01:13:07,313
you know. He supplied us, helped us, he was very happy that we survived. And I’m still
483
01:13:07,313 --> 01:13:19,989
friends with his children, they get a thousand dollars every Christmas. We brought them
484
01:13:19,989 --> 01:13:33,102
a lot of jewellery, you know, that we had stolen from the Sortierungsplatz during the last
485
01:13:33,102 --> 01:13:44,029
days, but it wasn’t enough. But he helped us. We survived because of him.
486
01:13:44,030 --> 01:13:52,640
And because of your God.
487
01:13:57,030 --> 01:13:57,340
Yes.
488
01:13:57,340 --> 01:13:59,080
You just told me you became very religious.
489
01:14:01,490 --> 01:14:09,747
Yes, I became religious. He was very religious, it’s
490
01:14:09,747 --> 01:14:17,700
so easy to become religious when you are in trouble.
491
01:14:20,350 --> 01:14:30,060
If you say religious, can you explain a little bit? Did you follow prescriptions?
492
01:14:31,740 --> 01:14:38,013
No. We just believed. I guess that if you help somebody, or you are nice
493
01:14:38,013 --> 01:14:44,287
to somebody, you get in return. Martin isn’t alive, but if you'll ever
494
01:14:44,287 --> 01:14:49,690
be in Israël, we have a monument put for him on the way to...
495
01:15:05,510 --> 01:15:06,060
At Yad Vashem?
496
01:15:06,060 --> 01:15:06,242
Yes. We felt he deserved, he had six children and God forbid they would have found us, he
497
01:15:06,242 --> 01:15:06,429
would have gone with the children. We made a monument there for the oldest children and for
498
01:15:06,429 --> 01:15:06,612
him at Yad Vashem and we felt they deserved it. And when the war was ending he was afraid
499
01:15:06,612 --> 01:15:06,793
of the Russians, because he was a Russian, Montsiniok. He was afraid, so we took him out
500
01:15:06,793 --> 01:15:06,980
and we got him settled and we put him in business and the children. I will show you letters
501
01:15:06,980 --> 01:15:07,130
of the children. We always support him. They all were in America already.
502
01:16:43,620 --> 01:16:46,775
Now you were still in the barn in hiding with your brother and
503
01:16:46,775 --> 01:16:49,880
two more, Samuel Lerer and somebody else, when the war ended?
504
01:16:59,970 --> 01:17:01,540
Yes! Sure!
505
01:17:01,540 --> 01:17:02,820
So what happened?
506
01:17:03,860 --> 01:17:22,637
Lerer is one. The other one passed away. He had a sister all the way out, within
507
01:17:22,637 --> 01:17:41,180
a year he passed away. He was older than we. He was a cook with the Ukrainians.
508
01:17:42,970 --> 01:17:51,910
But I’m trying to get back to your story. You were in hiding and then the Russians came?
509
01:17:52,230 --> 01:17:53,350
Yes.
510
01:17:53,900 --> 01:18:03,020
So then?
01:18:03,020 --> 01:18:03,020
So we all went out to Chelm
01:18:03,020 --> 01:18:14,343
and there they took care of us already. Montsiniok said we should open a bakery shop,
01:18:14,343 --> 01:18:25,404
he’ld supply us with the bread. But we didn’t have no feelings for Polacks, so they didn’t help us.
514
01:18:25,404 --> 01:18:35,957
No, they didn’t help us, they harmed us. Wherever
01:18:35,957 --> 01:18:43,839
they saw a Jew, they probably hurt him, but not as those Jews.
515
01:18:49,200 --> 01:18:50,420
Did they harm you?
516
01:18:53,450 --> 01:19:07,828
No. I was very lucky. And then, I always was in company, I was with my brother, and so we didn’t
517
01:19:07,828 --> 01:19:19,860
have no problems. Then I found my husband and the Polacks wanted to be nice to us.
518
01:19:20,030 --> 01:19:22,610
You found your husband in Chelm?
519
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:29,340
I knew him from Chelm. From before the war.
520
01:19:29,340 --> 01:19:34,280
How did you meet him?
521
01:19:34,280 --> 01:19:40,738
We were in the same company as his friend and we used to come into the house and that’s how
522
01:19:40,738 --> 01:19:47,544
we met. No, we knew each other before the war. He was older, but we were like in the same company,
523
01:19:47,544 --> 01:19:53,170
you know, the same crowd I would say. My husband is a college graduate in Poland.
524
01:20:19,660 --> 01:20:22,040
Did you like him already before the war?
525
01:20:26,670 --> 01:20:28,972
Oh, he was handsome, rich, they were the richest in our city, so what’s
526
01:20:28,972 --> 01:20:31,180
there not to like? Now he’s sick and I try to help as much as I can.
527
01:20:46,400 --> 01:20:49,460
You should.
528
01:20:49,460 --> 01:20:50,760
Nobody has to teach me this.
529
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:52,280
Yes, sure. So you met him, he was also coming to Chelm, what...
530
01:21:01,790 --> 01:21:03,350
From Russia.
531
01:21:03,350 --> 01:21:04,210
...had he been doing? From Warsaw?
532
01:21:04,210 --> 01:21:11,552
Yes. I didn’t meet him, I knew him, you know, Chelm wasn’t such a big
533
01:21:11,552 --> 01:21:18,190
city. I knew him. We started talking and that’s how it happened.
534
01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:34,010
And you stayed in Chelm? When did you leave?
535
01:21:34,010 --> 01:21:44,643
No, we left, we didn’t wanna stay, it was dangerous. All the Polacks were too dangerous. So,
536
01:21:44,643 --> 01:21:55,504
we left the minute we could leave. When the Russian army started to occupy Germany we moved with
537
01:21:55,504 --> 01:22:05,120
them. Because we felt the safest place still would be Germany, same with the Polacks.
538
01:22:05,120 --> 01:22:05,870
Yes?
539
01:22:05,870 --> 01:22:12,380
They were miserable.
540
01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:17,890
You thought the Polacks were more dangerous than the Germans?
541
01:22:17,890 --> 01:22:19,640
Oh yes!
542
01:22:20,400 --> 01:22:23,800
Despite all your good experiences?
543
01:22:27,190 --> 01:22:35,819
We were very afraid of the Polacks. They thought they lost
544
01:22:35,819 --> 01:22:44,300
the war, the Jews have everything, I hope you are Jewish?
545
01:22:44,300 --> 01:22:44,790
I am!
546
01:22:44,790 --> 01:22:56,654
You know, why should they get everything and they didn’t get nothing, they lost the war. They
547
01:22:56,654 --> 01:23:08,020
were miserable, the Polacks. At night we had to lock ourselves in, I’m telling the truth.
548
01:23:08,020 --> 01:23:16,020
You didn’t get protection from the Russians?
549
01:23:16,020 --> 01:23:30,629
We used to get protection, but not the protection that we needed. And then, when
550
01:23:30,629 --> 01:23:44,509
I came, my husband's father passed away soon, he survived. He had owned half
551
01:23:44,509 --> 01:23:59,119
the city at least. He didn’t ask for return, no, he was afraid, he passed away
552
01:23:59,119 --> 01:24:10,989
soon after the war. That’s why we followed the army to Germany.
553
01:24:10,990 --> 01:24:16,230
So when you left Chelm, where did you go to?
554
01:24:17,810 --> 01:24:18,670
They said...
555
01:24:18,670 --> 01:24:19,230
To Germany?
556
01:24:19,230 --> 01:24:25,961
No, the Germans were still fighting the Russians, the war was on. But
557
01:24:25,961 --> 01:24:32,400
we followed with a big crowd, we were there too. It was dangerous.
558
01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:42,590
And where did you end up?
559
01:24:49,490 --> 01:24:53,767
We didn’t have a place to land. Nobody wanted us. One was afraid, that maybe they were recognizing
560
01:24:53,767 --> 01:24:57,360
that he did something to the Jews or helps the Nazis, you know, it wasn’t so easy.
561
01:25:15,210 --> 01:25:17,560
So you went West.
562
01:25:18,040 --> 01:25:30,973
We figured we will follow, the Germans are now not dangerous. Because they had the wrong
563
01:25:30,973 --> 01:25:43,760
things to settle or to hide, you know? So it wasn’t easy until we came to the States.
564
01:25:47,470 --> 01:25:50,880
But you went through a DP camp?
565
01:25:50,990 --> 01:25:52,830
No.
566
01:25:52,830 --> 01:25:55,300
But you didn’t go straight to America?
567
01:25:55,300 --> 01:26:00,260
No. But I had friends, Polacks, who I knew they didn’t do nothing wrong
568
01:26:00,260 --> 01:26:05,084
to help the Germans. And I was with them, I had the Montsiniok, and all
569
01:26:05,084 --> 01:26:09,230
the children were in America already. I didn’t forget them.
570
01:26:22,400 --> 01:26:39,510
But can you please tell me what your itinerary was from Chelm to America?
571
01:26:41,140 --> 01:26:49,952
First of all we had family who left before the war. And as for
572
01:26:49,952 --> 01:26:58,480
politics, you figured maybe there will be more freedom here. Yes?
574
01:26:58,480 --> 01:27:09,470
And America had a good name [laughs].
575
01:27:09,470 --> 01:27:12,270
Sure, but from where did you leave?
576
01:27:14,910 --> 01:27:19,340
From where I left? I left from Germany.
577
01:27:19,340 --> 01:27:19,630
From Germany.
578
01:27:19,630 --> 01:27:24,260
I didn’t wanna be in Germany.
579
01:27:24,260 --> 01:27:29,360
So you came here in ’45?
580
01:27:30,160 --> 01:27:30,420
Yes.
581
01:27:31,390 --> 01:27:32,250
Were you already married?
582
01:27:35,270 --> 01:27:37,960
Sure! I came with my husband.
583
01:27:37,960 --> 01:27:42,390
You married in Chelm?
584
01:27:42,390 --> 01:27:43,924
No. We married in Poland, in Lublin. Because we didn’t
585
01:27:43,924 --> 01:27:45,130
wanna just hang together [laughs], you know?
586
01:27:55,900 --> 01:28:02,250
Sure. You had an official Jewish wedding?
587
01:28:02,250 --> 01:28:03,267
Oh yes! I didn’t have a wedding dress. But (we had) a coppoel, a rabbi in Germany,
588
01:28:03,267 --> 01:28:04,248
and we had, you know, not dressed up like a bride, but right away we got married,
589
01:28:04,248 --> 01:28:05,120
because we felt, our parents and we also didn’t feel like, you know...
590
01:28:38,490 --> 01:28:44,370
Where did you enter the United States?
591
01:28:44,370 --> 01:28:56,390
We came here, wait a second, more than fifty years ago.
592
01:28:56,610 --> 01:28:57,470
But where? Did you come through New York? Yes!
594
01:28:59,840 --> 01:29:01,470
[laughs] I’m just asking you.
595
01:29:09,560 --> 01:29:12,970
Yes. We came through the...
596
01:29:13,240 --> 01:29:13,320
The...?
597
01:29:13,320 --> 01:29:14,350
Yes.
598
01:29:14,620 --> 01:29:20,700
And then they received you in New York?
599
01:29:20,700 --> 01:29:35,237
There was an organization like the Joint and they helped you. They arranged your passports and stuff
600
01:29:35,237 --> 01:29:49,921
like that. Listen, they had a big organization, and when we came we didn’t have no things up on our
601
01:29:49,921 --> 01:30:04,313
sleeves, you know, and we got our papers. And we came here, we had friends here already. My brother
602
01:30:04,313 --> 01:30:18,851
was before us, because my brother’s wife is German-born. But this didn’t have nothing to do with
603
01:30:18,851 --> 01:30:31,500
it, her parents were still alive, German Jews, nice people. They are not alive anymore.
604
01:30:31,500 --> 01:30:35,080
And then you lived in New York? Or you came here immediately?
605
01:30:41,030 --> 01:30:52,490
We looked for people to be close, you know, we were without people, you understand.
606
01:30:52,490 --> 01:31:02,570
What a mess I’m telling you. And I lost Leon, Leon died, the Polacks...
607
01:31:02,570 --> 01:31:04,040
Feldhauer, yes?
608
01:31:04,580 --> 01:31:13,185
Yes. A lot (of people) from Europe that we had known
609
01:31:13,185 --> 01:31:21,460
before the war went here, so we weren’t special.
610
01:31:21,460 --> 01:31:23,200
So you came immediately to Fineland?
611
01:31:23,200 --> 01:31:24,050
Yes.
612
01:31:24,050 --> 01:31:25,320
And you stayed.
613
01:31:25,320 --> 01:31:26,420
Yes.
614
01:31:26,890 --> 01:31:27,510
Wonderful. [laughs]
615
01:31:31,120 --> 01:31:37,574
Yes, we were very successful here. If you want to work,
616
01:31:37,574 --> 01:31:43,090
no matter where you come from, you can make it.
617
01:31:44,790 --> 01:31:51,380
How many children do you have?
618
01:31:51,380 --> 01:31:51,850
Two.
619
01:31:51,850 --> 01:31:52,660
You have two children.
620
01:31:52,780 --> 01:31:53,630
Yes. Aha. So do you...
622
01:31:53,630 --> 01:31:59,550
Both very well educated.
623
01:31:59,550 --> 01:32:03,830
I have seen that. I have seen Abby.
624
01:32:08,360 --> 01:32:29,317
One is married already, one granddaughter, she’s a doctor in Jefferson Hospital and he is
625
01:32:29,317 --> 01:32:51,657
a doctor in Jefferson Hospital. And one grandson is a heart specialist and an emergency whatever.
626
01:32:51,657 --> 01:33:12,845
One is professor, how should I say, he is very educated, she’s a manager of a college. One
627
01:33:12,845 --> 01:33:31,270
is in college, one is in a high school, one finished college and is in business.
628
01:33:31,270 --> 01:33:31,370
Gosh! Enormous. What else can I ask?
630
01:33:31,950 --> 01:33:32,750
Sure.
631
01:33:34,210 --> 01:33:39,270
Oh, and one is in law school.
632
01:33:39,730 --> 01:33:40,260
Pfff.
633
01:33:40,260 --> 01:33:40,290
A girl. Gosh.
635
01:33:40,290 --> 01:33:40,600
So I did pretty good.
636
01:33:40,600 --> 01:33:43,650
You did. Now, do you think and dream a lot about Sobibor?
637
01:33:54,300 --> 01:33:54,680
Oh, always.
638
01:33:54,680 --> 01:33:56,170
Or do you try to forget? Always?
639
01:33:57,660 --> 01:34:15,545
Always. You cannot get it out of your mind. My oldest son is very much involved in the Holocaust, you
640
01:34:15,545 --> 01:34:35,025
know. I will show you, I went yesterday with him and he arranged a new college they opened up in Jacksonville.
641
01:34:35,025 --> 01:34:49,370
And he wanted me to go, I went with him. You know. And he’s very much involved.
642
01:34:49,370 --> 01:34:57,680
But we are talking about you. You said it never gets out of your mind?
643
01:34:58,790 --> 01:35:01,660
No. I mean, my husband and the second son went to Chelm, this summer. You know why? Because
644
01:35:01,660 --> 01:35:04,531
my husband’s father just died the minute the war was ended. He came out, he also had been
645
01:35:04,531 --> 01:35:07,275
hiding, so we built a fence around the cemetery, because there was no place to bury him
646
01:35:07,275 --> 01:35:09,609
except in Chelm. And my husband went this summer with one of my grandsons.
647
01:35:54,520 --> 01:35:57,770
For the next nine months?
648
01:35:57,770 --> 01:36:12,457
[reads from a book] For the next nine months we lived in a bunker under the barn Heidl had built.
649
01:36:12,457 --> 01:36:27,447
We lived like mice, only going out through the hay at night to get a drink of water from the horse,
650
01:36:27,447 --> 01:36:42,135
outside the barn. Mr. Montsiniok at the risk of his own life and his family's lives allowed us to
651
01:36:42,135 --> 01:36:56,822
stay. He brought us food when he could. There is no question he saved us. Yes? The area was still
652
01:36:56,822 --> 01:37:12,721
controlled by the Nazis and growing bands of Polish partisans anxious to kill Jews. Finally, the Russians
653
01:37:12,721 --> 01:37:27,409
drove the Nazis westward and we came out of hiding and returned to Chelm. There I learned that my
654
01:37:27,409 --> 01:37:42,247
mother had been shot and killed by the Nazis. Poland was not a safe place for Jews, returning Jews
655
01:37:42,247 --> 01:37:53,150
were resented and often murdered by their Polish neighbours. Is it good?
656
01:37:53,540 --> 01:37:54,030
Very good.
657
01:37:55,330 --> 01:38:06,532
A group of us, including my future husband, Ees, decided to stay close to the Russian army as it went
658
01:38:06,532 --> 01:38:17,401
towards Germany. In 1945, when the war ended, we found ourselves in Berlin. Ees and I got married,
659
01:38:17,401 --> 01:38:28,381
but on our honeymoon he was accused of being an English spy by the Russians and sentenced to death.
660
01:38:28,381 --> 01:38:37,920
After three years of death row I was able to bribe him out of jail. Should I go again? No.
662
01:38:37,920 --> 01:38:42,500
We were stateless people and did not dare to go back to Poland. We hoped to come to
663
01:38:42,500 --> 01:38:47,356
America and to start our life there. But not until 1950 were we able to come to America.
664
01:38:47,356 --> 01:38:52,102
Before leaving for America another Sobibor survivor came to me and told me he had just
665
01:38:52,102 --> 01:38:55,910
seen Erich Bauer, the Sobibor gas master, on a carrousel in the park.
666
01:38:55,910 --> 01:38:56,932
We had them arrested and I testified at his trial where he was sentenced to life imprisonment.
667
01:38:56,932 --> 01:38:57,856
This was the first of many trials where I would testify. This also started my telling
668
01:38:57,856 --> 01:38:58,520
of the Sobibor story, which I’m still telling to you today.
669
01:38:58,520 --> 01:39:00,492
Thank you. It’s enough. Thank you so much. Can I ask you the question, can you tell me what happened
670
01:39:00,492 --> 01:39:02,290
to your husband? You haven’t told me yet. You were in Berlin and your husband got arrested?
671
01:39:03,680 --> 01:39:04,000
No. He has a problem with his leg. He cannot walk.
672
01:39:04,000 --> 01:39:05,520
673
01:39:05,520 --> 01:39:08,380
Oh yes. Three years they gave him. What exactly happened? You said they gave him three years. But can you tell me, it was very short.
675
01:39:08,380 --> 01:39:09,210
Yes, in 19.., I said, no.
677
01:39:09,210 --> 01:39:50,902
[sentenced] He was, this was the first of many trials that I would testify. This also started
678
01:39:50,902 --> 01:40:33,043
my telling of the Sobibor story, which I’m still telling you today. Oh, here. Before leaving
679
01:40:33,043 --> 01:41:12,943
for America, another Sobibor survivor came to me and told me he had seen Erich Bauer, the
680
01:41:12,943 --> 01:41:45,669
Sobibor gas master, on a carrousel in the park. That’s what you wanted?
681
01:41:45,680 --> 01:41:49,281
No, I want your story, can you put that aside please? Can you
682
01:41:49,281 --> 01:41:52,470
leave that for a moment please, what you have written?
683
01:41:52,470 --> 01:41:53,380
Yes.
684
01:41:53,380 --> 01:41:55,270
So can I ask you a question please?
685
01:41:55,270 --> 01:42:00,770
Yes. [turns pages] What happened.
686
01:42:00,770 --> 01:42:01,852
Just put it down for a moment, please, because I want you to
687
01:42:01,852 --> 01:42:02,880
remember it. What happened to your husband? What exactly?
688
01:42:12,390 --> 01:42:25,615
What happened? My husband went to Russia. Instead of remaining with the Germans, he left to Russia.
689
01:42:25,615 --> 01:42:38,040
There he was accused of being a spy. When he came back, they put him for three years in jail.
690
01:42:38,040 --> 01:42:39,800
In Berlin?
691
01:42:39,800 --> 01:42:45,997
Yes. And I saved enough money and bribed a Nazi Besetz,
692
01:42:45,997 --> 01:42:51,180
I’m sorry for the word, and they let him go.
693
01:42:51,180 --> 01:42:59,330
But was he picked up from the street, or how did it happen in Berlin?
694
01:42:59,330 --> 01:43:05,870
He went for his passport, I think.
695
01:43:05,870 --> 01:43:09,200
Yes? And then they arrested him? Gosh.
696
01:43:14,660 --> 01:43:19,570
The Germans. Okay?
697
01:43:19,570 --> 01:43:23,813
And then we agreed that we would talk a little bit about
698
01:43:23,813 --> 01:43:27,300
religion, how you became religious in Sobibor.
699
01:43:32,130 --> 01:43:49,943
I think I became religious because most of the religious people in Sobibor, they
700
01:43:49,943 --> 01:44:05,530
were the last of the Polish Jews. That’s why they finished them all.
701
01:44:05,530 --> 01:44:10,830
But you became religious, what did religious mean?
702
01:44:10,830 --> 01:44:24,669
I came from a religious home and it’s much easier when you have something to hang on [laughs]
703
01:44:24,669 --> 01:44:39,527
when things are bad. Some people stopped being religious, but I just came from a home where my parents
704
01:44:39,527 --> 01:44:51,910
were religious and they always blamed it on their God, whoever, it was easier for me.
705
01:44:53,880 --> 01:44:54,570
To be religious?
706
01:44:54,570 --> 01:44:55,240
Yes.
707
01:44:55,240 --> 01:44:59,890
Were you the only one in Sobibor, or were the other girls religious?
708
01:44:59,950 --> 01:45:14,423
No. But when it was Yom Kippur, we all prayed as much as we could. If you are not religious,
709
01:45:14,423 --> 01:45:28,268
you know, you blame that maybe on I don’t know whom, but when you have a little belief
710
01:45:28,268 --> 01:45:38,180
in yourself it’s much easier to go through a thing like that.
711
01:45:38,180 --> 01:45:39,900
And does religion help you now?
712
01:45:43,690 --> 01:45:44,800
Yes!
713
01:45:44,800 --> 01:45:45,730
Tell me.
714
01:45:45,730 --> 01:45:50,560
I think with raising the family. We are closer, because we have the religion in between us.
715
01:46:05,570 --> 01:46:09,660
So did you ever ask God why is this happening?
716
01:46:09,660 --> 01:46:18,750
We cannot ask God, but if you’re religious you don’t ask too much. Am I right?
717
01:46:20,300 --> 01:46:21,140
Yes.
718
01:46:23,730 --> 01:46:35,390
And I feel that it was much easier to go through, in Sobibor, if you believed.
719
01:46:35,390 --> 01:46:46,400
But it didn’t take the shape of special actions, it was in your head?
720
01:46:49,570 --> 01:46:57,463
No, I figured every night when I went to sleep, that I survived, you know, that surviving
721
01:46:57,463 --> 01:47:05,623
was such a big word. I guess, the way I was brought up... I didn’t have enough time really
722
01:47:05,623 --> 01:47:12,629
to do something else. You know? Because I felt faith gave me a lot of strength.
723
01:47:33,520 --> 01:47:42,437
I imagine. Also while we were having lunch, Esther, or cookies,
724
01:47:42,437 --> 01:47:50,930
you said you recognized Demjanjuk? That you knew who he was?
725
01:48:17,300 --> 01:48:19,010
When?
726
01:48:19,190 --> 01:48:29,360
When you read about him, you know who Demjanjuk was, you said.
727
01:48:29,360 --> 01:48:31,500
With coffee and cookies?
728
01:48:31,500 --> 01:48:33,550
When we were eating cookies.
729
01:48:33,550 --> 01:48:33,950
Yes.
730
01:48:33,950 --> 01:48:44,870
Yes, you told me that you recognized John Demjanjuk.
731
01:48:44,870 --> 01:48:45,550
Oh, Demjanjuk?
732
01:48:45,550 --> 01:48:46,140
Ja.
733
01:48:46,140 --> 01:49:02,937
I mean, I have now a paper where he was young. Very young. In Sobibor, probably. I remember faces, listen,
734
01:49:02,937 --> 01:49:17,200
I’ve been to so many trials, I never made a mistake. I went to more trials, all of them.
735
01:49:23,850 --> 01:49:25,780
How come? You were asked?
736
01:49:26,300 --> 01:49:40,260
I don’t know, maybe I was interested in going to trials and I was very
737
01:49:40,260 --> 01:49:54,415
anxious to get it where it’s supposed to be. No, I didn’t think about
738
01:49:54,415 --> 01:50:06,050
belief to take revenge, but I wanted to get it off my chest.
739
01:50:08,160 --> 01:50:10,070
Because it’s always there.
740
01:50:10,800 --> 01:50:13,740
And will never go away.
741
01:50:13,740 --> 01:50:21,050
So you want Demjanjuk also to be punished?
742
01:50:22,870 --> 01:50:23,810
Yes.
743
01:50:28,230 --> 01:50:32,950
So your first trial was in Berlin?
744
01:50:32,950 --> 01:50:34,300
In Berlin, yes.
745
01:50:35,140 --> 01:50:36,470
And then many more followed.
746
01:50:36,470 --> 01:50:42,515
Then I went to Gomerski. Clea gave me the boots and Gomerski was a dog,
747
01:50:42,515 --> 01:50:48,390
they don’t come any worse. And then I went to eleven guys on trial.
748
01:51:08,120 --> 01:51:08,920
In Hagen?
749
01:51:08,920 --> 01:51:09,453
To Hagen. There were two brothers, Wolfs, and one Wolf was so good, I mean, he was not guilty
750
01:51:09,453 --> 01:51:09,974
in nothing. And the other one was a dog! Then I went to whose trial? Again? I went to many.
751
01:51:09,974 --> 01:51:10,536
And then, when they made the gas chambers in Sobibor, they didn’t have it when we came, that’s
752
01:51:10,536 --> 01:51:11,115
when they got the idea to make gas chambers, but first they made it just for children and youngsters.
753
01:51:11,115 --> 01:51:11,500
And then they made it wherever they could get some people to do it.
754
01:52:17,450 --> 01:52:20,110
Have you ever been near the gas chambers?
755
01:52:26,650 --> 01:52:33,360
No. I shouldn’t lie. No. I don’t know what’s inside. I saw them walking to the door.
756
01:52:43,090 --> 01:52:48,870
That you could see from your place?
757
01:52:48,870 --> 01:52:55,989
Yes, because we always felt, let’s see what’s going on, let’s see how they’re
758
01:52:55,989 --> 01:53:03,275
doing it. You know? It was curiosity, maybe we’ld have to tell it sometimes. Yes. But
759
01:53:03,275 --> 01:53:10,060
you saw the people going naked from where they got undressed to the gas chambers.
760
01:53:10,060 --> 01:53:20,950
So you had no hope, no?
761
01:53:24,390 --> 01:53:34,920
No. I don’t know if I didn’t have, I always thought they don’t mean me. [laughs] Stupid huh?
762
01:53:34,920 --> 01:53:38,480
You were there? You are still there.
763
01:53:42,600 --> 01:53:42,942
Yes. You saw them walking naked through the walkway to the gas chamber. I never
764
01:53:42,942 --> 01:53:43,284
saw the door to the gas chamber, but I knew where they were going. You didn’t
765
01:53:43,284 --> 01:53:43,610
see if they punished somebody and took him there. And you didn’t see him.
766
01:54:15,200 --> 01:54:17,650
Is that the image which haunts you most?
767
01:54:23,920 --> 01:54:35,060
No, it was very hard for me to build an image.
768
01:54:39,280 --> 01:54:49,082
You know? We knew the people were not there, we saw they took out, sometimes
769
01:54:49,082 --> 01:54:58,885
if the things were spoiled, we saw they used to bring them in on wagons, all
770
01:54:58,885 --> 01:55:08,430
sorts of things. But you couldn’t picture them dead. I don’t think so.
771
01:55:08,430 --> 01:55:12,950
How do you take people and just kill them?
772
01:55:15,750 --> 01:55:20,814
It’s impossible. But if you have your nightmares,
773
01:55:20,814 --> 01:55:25,780
is it the scare of Sobibor, is it a special image?
774
01:55:27,100 --> 01:55:30,771
Mostly, I will have (nightmares) about the Nazis, you know.
775
01:55:30,771 --> 01:55:34,070
Who either was favourable to everybody, or was a dog.
776
01:55:47,210 --> 01:55:55,230
Is there anything you haven’t told you still want to tell about your life or about Sobibor?
777
01:55:55,230 --> 01:56:00,129
Listen, the pictures are here for me, the books are here, I’ll live with them
778
01:56:00,129 --> 01:56:05,029
until I die. You cannot erase, that’s impossible. Why? And then the why is so
779
01:56:05,029 --> 01:56:10,176
big. You know? It’s so big, why did they have to kill those little children? They
780
01:56:10,176 --> 01:56:14,579
didn’t give them nothing, no power, no mourning, nothing? Am I right?
781
01:56:46,670 --> 01:56:51,310
Absolutely. I can’t answer it for you.
782
01:56:54,610 --> 01:57:07,478
I cannot. I mean, you don't have to be a murderer, a killer. I don’t know what you have to be
783
01:57:07,478 --> 01:57:19,940
when you have children at home and you see them dead here from the other end, from the door.
784
01:57:24,040 --> 01:57:26,698
Do you also have this feeling towards the Poles, the Polish population?
785
01:57:26,698 --> 01:57:28,870
That kind of question towards the Poles which haunted you?
786
01:57:35,230 --> 01:57:45,628
Oh yes! The Polacks waited to get everything that the Jews had and (they) didn’t have, you
787
01:57:45,628 --> 01:57:55,913
understand, and they were big anti-Semites. They thought that if the Jews have a few onions
788
01:57:55,913 --> 01:58:05,519
more in their gardens it’s the Jews' fault. The Poles were very, very anti-Semitic.
789
01:58:16,130 --> 01:58:22,220
Thank you very much, Esther.