1 00:00:10,970 --> 00:00:10,970 Where have you been born? 2 00:00:10,970 --> 00:00:23,670 I was born in Ukraine, shtetl Ternivka 1922, in Oktober. 3 00:00:23,670 --> 00:00:24,340 Which year? 4 00:00:24,340 --> 00:00:26,670 Eee nineteen twenty two. 5 00:00:30,900 --> 00:00:31,160 OK. 6 00:00:31,160 --> 00:01:04,840 In 1940 I graduated from the secondary school. And I went to the Red Army. The Red Army. 7 00:01:05,790 --> 00:01:11,320 To the Red Army? 8 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:12,110 Red Army. 9 00:01:12,110 --> 00:01:12,110 ?] 10 00:01:12,110 --> 00:01:17,750 In 1940. In 1940, November 1940 I went to the Red Army. 11 00:01:17,750 --> 00:01:17,750 Yes. 12 00:01:17,750 --> 00:01:22,730 First, I served in Daugavpils, Latvia, and then in Minsk. 13 00:01:22,730 --> 00:01:22,730 Yes. 14 00:01:22,730 --> 00:01:35,690 Ant there the war began. It was in 1922, I was near Minsk. 50 km between Minsk and Baranovitch. 15 00:01:35,690 --> 00:01:35,940 Uhm 16 00:01:35,940 --> 00:01:41,440 And then, we were eee we withdrew 17 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:41,860 I understood. 18 00:01:41,860 --> 00:01:44,771 We started to withdraw from Minsk, we were eee near Berezina, I was an artilleryman 19 00:01:44,771 --> 00:01:47,100 - heavy artillery! At Berezina - river Berezina - we got heavy eer 20 00:01:47,100 --> 00:01:47,100 (Kempfn ? - fighting / Kegn ? - against) 21 00:01:47,100 --> 00:01:47,810 Kkk the Germans, we knocked down seven tanks. 22 00:01:47,810 --> 00:01:48,970 What did he say? 23 00:01:48,970 --> 00:01:49,150 By the river, it’s 24 00:01:49,150 --> 00:01:49,150 Berezina? 25 00:01:49,150 --> 00:01:49,150 Yes. 26 00:01:49,150 --> 00:01:50,050 Berezina. 27 00:01:50,050 --> 00:02:17,090 They they resisted very well and seven tanks they had there. 28 00:02:17,090 --> 00:02:31,420 OK, try not to intervene, you intervened with a word, he can find it himself, yeah? 29 00:02:31,420 --> 00:02:31,800 OK. 30 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:32,540 Try. 31 00:02:32,540 --> 00:02:32,710 OK. 32 00:02:32,710 --> 00:02:32,860 Yeah 33 00:02:32,860 --> 00:02:34,850 Then we were with aviators, we’ve been bombed heavily 34 00:02:34,850 --> 00:02:35,080 Yes. 35 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,860 And at Mogilov 36 00:02:38,860 --> 00:02:38,860 Yes. 37 00:02:38,860 --> 00:02:41,160 between Mogilov and Smolensk 38 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:41,750 Smolensk? 39 00:02:41,750 --> 00:02:42,590 I became a prisoner of war. 40 00:02:42,590 --> 00:02:42,590 Yes. 41 00:02:42,590 --> 00:02:45,386 I was wounded, I had an injury. I became a prisoner o war. Then we were from 42 00:02:45,386 --> 00:02:47,860 the general camp for 70-80 000 prisoners of war, Jews were picked up. 43 00:02:47,860 --> 00:02:47,860 Yes. 44 00:02:47,860 --> 00:02:58,208 If somebody walked away from the Jews, he was shot. Russians - out!, Jews ee Ukrainians - out!, 45 00:02:58,208 --> 00:03:07,720 and Jews should go out. Well - I think - I do not resemble a Jew, all the Jews resemble me. 46 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:08,660 What? What did he say? Last words? 47 00:03:08,660 --> 00:03:09,650 Eer how did you say that? 48 00:03:09,650 --> 00:03:43,340 I am not eee I am not like a Jew. I do not look like a Jew. But all the Jews look like me. 49 00:03:43,340 --> 00:03:53,210 I do not look like a Jew but all the Jews look like me. 50 00:03:53,210 --> 00:03:53,210 OK, I understood you, yeah. 51 00:03:53,210 --> 00:03:58,560 I left. We left, 230 Jews. We were taken to the Minsk camp in the street 52 00:03:58,560 --> 00:03:58,560 How many? 53 00:03:58,560 --> 00:03:58,560 Eee 32 54 00:03:58,560 --> 00:03:58,560 Ok. 55 00:03:58,560 --> 00:03:59,760 Camp. Concentration camp, SS concentration camp eee work camp in Minsk. 56 00:03:59,760 --> 00:03:59,760 Yes. 57 00:03:59,760 --> 00:03:59,760 From those 32 230 Jews - prisoners of war - eee till March 1942, maybe 15 people remained. 58 00:03:59,760 --> 00:03:59,760 Yes, I understand. 59 00:04:00,700 --> 00:04:10,126 The rest died - from hunger, from cold, from Then more Jews were brought 60 00:04:10,126 --> 00:04:19,170 from eee 1942 Timoshenko lost Budyonny lost he lost the battle. 61 00:04:19,170 --> 00:04:20,590 What did he say? 62 00:04:20,590 --> 00:04:23,410 Budyonny, Budyonny - he lost the battle. 63 00:04:23,410 --> 00:04:23,500 OK. 64 00:04:24,330 --> 00:04:34,500 Two armies clashed in the field. More Jews were brought to us. Only 65 00:04:34,500 --> 00:04:43,760 Jews were being brought to our camp. It was a camp for Jewish 66 00:04:45,470 --> 00:04:46,280 Prisoners of war. 67 00:04:46,280 --> 00:04:47,160 Prisoners of war. 68 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:47,970 OK. 69 00:04:47,970 --> 00:05:00,435 In 1943, September 1943, we were (taken) from Minsk, from the camp and 70 00:05:00,435 --> 00:05:12,010 from the Minsk ghetto we were gathered in eee wagons trains 71 00:05:12,010 --> 00:05:12,880 Eeer trains, the 72 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:13,510 Trains, yes! 73 00:05:13,510 --> 00:05:14,270 Eeer trains. 74 00:05:14,270 --> 00:05:14,730 Trains! 75 00:05:14,730 --> 00:05:18,010 Yyy They put him on the trains. 76 00:05:18,010 --> 00:05:22,798 200 people per a wagon. And then we were taken to Poland. 77 00:05:22,798 --> 00:05:26,410 And in Poland we travelled three more days. 78 00:05:26,410 --> 00:05:26,970 Yes. 79 00:05:26,970 --> 00:05:28,240 Yes. 80 00:05:28,490 --> 00:05:49,400 And in the dawn! On the 4th day, very early, we were taken to a camp. The wagons entered the camp. 81 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:50,450 Yes. 82 00:05:50,450 --> 00:05:57,491 We didn’t know yet what kind of a camp it was, not at all. We got out from 83 00:05:57,491 --> 00:06:04,718 the wagon eee onto a square. A German told us - he was standing on a table 84 00:06:04,718 --> 00:06:10,370 - and he said: “Plumbers and locksmiths” locksmith is a 85 00:06:10,370 --> 00:06:10,370 Eem Schlosser (Ger.: locksmith) 86 00:06:10,370 --> 00:06:11,850 Please, say it in English. It is impossible Say it in English, please. 87 00:06:11,850 --> 00:06:20,040 Yes, but I have forgotten the the name. 88 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:21,660 Plumber. 89 00:06:22,300 --> 00:06:23,860 OK. Say it in German. 90 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,400 Schlosser is a 91 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:28,850 Sleutelmaker (Nl.) 92 00:06:28,850 --> 00:06:29,990 Sleutelmaker (Nl.), yes. 93 00:06:29,990 --> 00:06:30,930 He sad he was a locksmith. 94 00:06:30,930 --> 00:06:43,000 And plumber. Plumbers and locksmiths. 95 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:43,000 (Go) out! Yes. 96 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:49,554 they went out. We were three friends. We became very good friends in Minsk]: me, Sasha 97 00:06:49,554 --> 00:06:55,960 Kuptchin and Grisha Pechersky. Grisha says: “I’m a locksmith - I’m going out”. 98 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:56,520 Sorry 99 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,659 Eer why they were three friends. One of them said: “I’m 100 00:07:00,659 --> 00:07:04,010 a sleutelmaker” (Nl.: locksmith) and he went out. 101 00:07:04,010 --> 00:07:05,830 Please, no Dutch on the tape. 102 00:07:05,830 --> 00:07:06,800 Yes. 103 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:08,300 It’s impossible to transcribe it. 104 00:07:08,300 --> 00:07:09,110 were a 105 00:07:09,110 --> 00:07:10,030 Please, try not to 106 00:07:10,030 --> 00:07:14,120 But I have not the the the 107 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:15,730 OK, OK, the key-maker. 108 00:07:15,730 --> 00:07:16,170 the key-maker 109 00:07:16,170 --> 00:07:17,520 OK, sorry, OK sorry, sorry. 110 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:25,150 Yad-Vashem]! In Yad-Vashem there is my cassette. It’s all translated to English. 111 00:07:25,150 --> 00:07:25,150 I know. 112 00:07:25,150 --> 00:07:26,480 Everything is described. I talked about everything, three hours! 113 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:34,964 I’m telling you now: when you speak all the languages together, I won’t find people, 114 00:07:34,964 --> 00:07:42,100 who will translate it. It must be two languages. Or three: German, English 115 00:07:42,100 --> 00:07:43,210 I understand. 116 00:07:43,210 --> 00:07:50,110 Yeah? And if also Dutch gets involved, it becomes impossible to ask. Yes. OK. 117 00:07:50,110 --> 00:08:01,685 They went out, Grisha they went out They were taken out. Where? 118 00:08:01,685 --> 00:08:11,360 I don’t know. Then he said: “Carpenters - go out!” 119 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:11,490 Timbermen. 120 00:08:11,490 --> 00:08:11,750 Yes. 121 00:08:11,750 --> 00:08:16,533 I was ( .[? I wasn’t I was none of these. I didn’t 122 00:08:16,533 --> 00:08:20,280 go out. But Sasha Kuptchin - the friend of mine 123 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:21,030 I had no profession. 124 00:08:21,140 --> 00:08:21,570 Yes. 125 00:08:21,570 --> 00:08:34,550 I couldn’t say that I am a plumber, or a timberman, so 126 00:08:34,550 --> 00:08:44,510 Sasha Kuptchin tells me: “My father is a carpenter, come with me, you will help me”. I say 127 00:08:44,510 --> 00:08:48,680 So you are a carpenter? 128 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:50,328 I did not to out. He went out. And something happened to me: I got a 129 00:08:50,328 --> 00:08:51,930 I was drenched with sweat, some power told me: “Go out! Go out!” 130 00:08:51,930 --> 00:08:58,701 Eer, I had no profession but something in me yearned to go 131 00:08:58,701 --> 00:09:05,240 out and I was all in sweat, I was covered in sweat. And? 132 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,830 I raised my hand and shouted: I’m a glazier! 133 00:09:09,060 --> 00:09:11,080 I’m a glazier. Yes? 134 00:09:11,270 --> 00:09:19,749 The German who was registering came to me. He says - he stands like this, o! 135 00:09:19,749 --> 00:09:28,451 - “Are you a communist?” I say: “No! I’m too young” I was then mmm 136 00:09:28,451 --> 00:09:36,150 eee twenty years old! “I’m too young.” “Out, damn pig!” 137 00:09:36,150 --> 00:09:38,630 I went out. I was together with Sasha. Seventy 138 00:09:38,630 --> 00:09:38,630 Sasha Pechersky? 139 00:09:38,630 --> 00:09:39,530 No, Sasha Kuptchin, my friend. 140 00:09:39,530 --> 00:09:39,530 Yes. 141 00:09:39,530 --> 00:09:39,530 Pechersky also went out. 142 00:09:39,530 --> 00:09:39,530 Yes. 143 00:09:39,530 --> 00:09:54,842 Eighty people went out as carpenters. And I was a glazier - out as well. We were led not for 144 00:09:54,842 --> 00:10:10,821 a long time - 10-15 minutes. They seated us away we sat on the ground four, five or six hours. 145 00:10:10,821 --> 00:10:24,470 None of us knew anything. Nobody came to us. Then we were given coffee with bread. 146 00:10:24,470 --> 00:10:24,740 Aha. 147 00:10:24,740 --> 00:10:39,690 And we ask: Where did all the people from the transport go? There were 2000 people. 148 00:10:39,690 --> 00:10:42,560 OK, what did he say? 149 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:46,740 And we asked: “Where are the other people that were with us?” 2200 people. 150 00:10:46,740 --> 00:10:54,585 They say: “ A, there” they say “([? comes smoke - this are your people”. We 151 00:10:54,585 --> 00:11:02,711 understood where we were. We were there mmm we were there 22 days. People who lived 152 00:11:02,711 --> 00:11:09,529 already many years in Sobibor, no not many years one and a half year. 153 00:11:09,530 --> 00:11:17,690 What did he say? 154 00:11:17,690 --> 00:11:20,740 There were people, er year and a half there. 155 00:11:20,740 --> 00:11:23,840 They thought: how can we escape? 156 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:28,810 They thought: how can we escape? 157 00:11:28,810 --> 00:11:36,530 They say: with whom shall we plan it? A, we came, the Jewish prisoners of war, 158 00:11:36,530 --> 00:11:43,360 soon they had Petchersky - he was older than us - 14, 13 years older. 159 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,210 Pechersky was 14 years elder than they, they were, er, prisoners of war. 160 00:11:48,410 --> 00:11:58,690 We made a committee. A plan how to escape. 161 00:11:58,690 --> 00:12:00,040 A plan how to escape, they made. 162 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:00,040 Yes. 163 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:00,940 They, they made a committee. 164 00:12:00,940 --> 00:12:02,760 On October 14, it was on the 21st day after we came to Sobibor. 165 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:04,910 21 days after he came here. 166 00:12:04,910 --> 00:12:07,030 21 days after he came here. 167 00:12:07,030 --> 00:12:13,260 I was sent to a carpenter’s shop - to work. 168 00:12:13,260 --> 00:12:13,560 Uhm. 169 00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:14,941 In the afternoon I was left in the carpenter’s shop. 170 00:12:14,941 --> 00:12:16,170 There came Petchersky to the carpenter’s shop. 171 00:12:16,170 --> 00:12:16,530 Uhm 172 00:12:16,530 --> 00:12:28,980 I understood that there will be it will be hot 173 00:12:30,170 --> 00:12:39,364 Eehm they came to the timber er plant and Pechersky arrived. Also all other 174 00:12:39,364 --> 00:12:47,310 people. And he understood that now it will be er will be something. 175 00:12:47,310 --> 00:12:54,783 He took me to the side and told me that at four o’clock should 176 00:12:54,783 --> 00:13:01,090 come to the carpenter’s shop eee Karl Frenzel. 177 00:13:01,090 --> 00:13:01,090 Yes. 178 00:13:01,090 --> 00:13:07,665 Can I, with an axe kill him. I say: yes. I stand in the window, in the carpenter’s shop. 179 00:13:07,665 --> 00:13:14,170 Pechersky stands by my side. We’re waiting for Frenzel to come. But Frenzel did not come. 180 00:13:14,170 --> 00:13:14,170 Whoof! 181 00:13:14,170 --> 00:13:14,170 I know. 182 00:13:14,170 --> 00:13:18,820 From four till five we were supposed to eee kill all the Germans. 183 00:13:18,820 --> 00:13:21,560 What? German what? 184 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:22,900 In the 185 00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:26,340 Yyy ve he had to kill. 186 00:13:29,630 --> 00:13:30,040 Yes. 187 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:35,240 It was cold in the carpenter’s shop I was (cold). And eee where one makes 188 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,450 Tailor’s shop? Clothes. Tailor’s shop. 189 00:13:37,450 --> 00:13:42,910 Shubayev and another friend. And where one makes shoes - there was Arkadiy Vayspapir with Lerner. 190 00:13:42,910 --> 00:13:42,910 Ja. 191 00:13:42,910 --> 00:13:51,579 And to the other camp, where there were four Germans, Tsybulsky was sent. In the second in 192 00:13:51,579 --> 00:14:00,531 the second camp. He was supposed kill them between four and five. Frenzel did not come, already 193 00:14:00,531 --> 00:14:08,730 four o’clock, on a horse, rode to the first camp - it all happened in the first camp. 194 00:14:09,500 --> 00:14:15,790 All this happened in the first camp. 195 00:14:15,790 --> 00:14:15,970 Yes. 196 00:14:15,970 --> 00:14:19,600 I will draw you I will draw you how 197 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:20,650 I know 198 00:14:20,650 --> 00:14:20,650 I will draw you how it 199 00:14:20,650 --> 00:14:21,690 I know. 200 00:14:21,690 --> 00:14:21,940 A? 201 00:14:21,940 --> 00:14:22,610 I know. 202 00:14:22,610 --> 00:14:23,190 You know? 203 00:14:23,190 --> 00:14:23,250 I know the geography. 204 00:14:23,250 --> 00:14:29,686 A! A yes? Good. In the first camp there was such a gate it was eee not the commander, the 205 00:14:29,686 --> 00:14:36,322 commander was (called) Berg, he was not there on that day. But Neumann, the one who told me: “Out, 206 00:14:36,322 --> 00:14:41,830 damn pig!”. Neumann]! On a horse (he) came to the camp, rode to - where one makes 207 00:14:41,830 --> 00:14:42,320 Clothes. 208 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:42,590 Clothes. 209 00:14:42,590 --> 00:14:50,660 clothes, and got off the horse, came inside. It was the the last minute of his life. 210 00:14:50,660 --> 00:14:51,520 Yes. 211 00:14:51,950 --> 00:14:55,740 There he eer put on the coat to try it on 212 00:14:59,410 --> 00:15:02,090 What does he say? 213 00:15:02,090 --> 00:15:03,170 He put on the 214 00:15:03,170 --> 00:15:03,170 The jacket, yes? 215 00:15:03,170 --> 00:15:04,790 The the jacket. 216 00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:05,180 Yes 217 00:15:05,180 --> 00:15:06,580 And eeer. 218 00:15:06,580 --> 00:15:06,580 Shubayev. 219 00:15:06,580 --> 00:15:08,180 And this was his last moment. 220 00:15:08,180 --> 00:15:19,030 Shubayev (hit) him with an axe in the back, but he did not hit hard. He gave 221 00:15:19,030 --> 00:15:29,310 a shout. The horse heard his scream, stood up on his two legs, the horse 222 00:15:29,310 --> 00:15:39,300 He did not er he cried out and the horse heard and stood up (..?.) on both his legs. 223 00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:47,115 We saw everything from the window what is happening because we had the From the window 224 00:15:47,115 --> 00:15:54,931 we saw everything, because there was an office in the carpenter’s shop. It looked normally 225 00:15:54,931 --> 00:16:02,407 but then there were two people in the other cell: Shubayev and another one. He finished, 226 00:16:02,407 --> 00:16:09,798 everything was (happening) outside the tailor’s (shop), he took the horse between the 227 00:16:09,798 --> 00:16:15,319 barracks. Neumann’s pistol was brought and given to Petchersky. 228 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:20,120 Et e they took the horse away. The, the pistol Neumann the 229 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:24,700 Neumann’s pistol they took Er it was given to Pechersky. 230 00:16:25,820 --> 00:16:27,709 To the where one makes shoes Germans came to the tailor’s shop 231 00:16:27,709 --> 00:16:29,679 Germans came, everything was in order. In the second camp Petchersky made 232 00:16:29,679 --> 00:16:31,380 no Tsybulsky made order - four Germans. In the second camp. 233 00:16:31,380 --> 00:16:31,580 Yes. 234 00:16:31,580 --> 00:16:39,224 Five o’clock, work in the camp ends. Everybody comes to the Appellplatz and we are being counted. 235 00:16:39,224 --> 00:16:45,710 But the Germans were already among 11 Germans were already dead. Who should count? 236 00:16:45,710 --> 00:16:48,210 11 Germans er were already dead. 237 00:16:48,240 --> 00:17:06,044 And Frenzel was not in the camp. Frenzel was not (there). So I did not conduct the order. He came 238 00:17:06,044 --> 00:17:24,031 later, when we begun to We took all the people out on the Appellplatz at five o’clock, October 239 00:17:24,031 --> 00:17:41,469 14, five o’clock. Shubayev overheard that Tsybulsky goes in the second camp and sings a song. 240 00:17:41,469 --> 00:17:58,906 It means: everything is in order. The four Germans from the second camp are dead. Shubayev took 241 00:17:58,906 --> 00:18:13,589 out the pistol, he did not shoot, but he shouted: For the homeland, for Stalin]! 242 00:18:13,590 --> 00:18:14,180 Which is? Translate, please. 243 00:18:14,180 --> 00:18:15,530 It is Russian. 244 00:18:15,530 --> 00:18:20,610 He shouted: for the homeland, for Stalin]! 245 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:26,040 For the for our fatherland and for a for Stalin. 246 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:26,280 OK. 247 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:27,150 Ahead! 248 00:18:28,140 --> 00:18:33,673 I ran with an axe in my hand, I went through the gate, went 249 00:18:33,673 --> 00:18:38,270 between the officers’ when they were shooting 250 00:18:38,270 --> 00:18:38,270 (..?.) 251 00:18:38,270 --> 00:18:42,300 I was running. 252 00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:42,720 Yes. 253 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:43,450 I ran to the wire. 254 00:18:43,450 --> 00:18:43,690 Yes. 255 00:18:43,690 --> 00:18:46,980 And I wanted, with the axe 256 00:18:46,980 --> 00:18:47,890 He wanted to do with his axe to cut 257 00:18:47,890 --> 00:18:47,890 The wire. 258 00:18:47,890 --> 00:18:47,890 The wire. 259 00:18:47,890 --> 00:18:52,180 I threw away the axe, I climbed three meters but ( .[? tore my overalls a little. 260 00:18:52,180 --> 00:18:52,330 Of course. Nice overalls. 261 00:18:52,330 --> 00:18:56,648 I ran, fell, ran, fell, ran, fell, run like a soldier I was a soldier ran, fell, ran, 262 00:18:56,648 --> 00:19:00,920 fell, into the forest. I looked here, I think: what is it that something hurts in my foot. 263 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:01,190 His feet were er 264 00:19:01,190 --> 00:19:04,050 And only then his he his leg begin to hurt. 265 00:19:04,050 --> 00:19:04,190 OK. 266 00:19:06,790 --> 00:19:10,730 I had a look - a bullet went through from here 267 00:19:10,730 --> 00:19:12,070 ‘A koyl’? 268 00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:12,520 A bullet 269 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:13,910 A bullet hurt him, yeah 270 00:19:13,910 --> 00:19:18,800 But the foot the leg was intact. 271 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:19,390 OK. 272 00:19:21,110 --> 00:19:28,284 I did not think at all, (at the ) beginning of the next day we were all together. There were 273 00:19:28,284 --> 00:19:34,680 50 people there. 50 people. All together. (..?.) The police from around and around 274 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:42,870 The police with a fifty people, fifty men and we ran all together. We couldn’t 275 00:19:42,870 --> 00:19:43,280 It was 276 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:52,980 Because because the police began to round us up. 277 00:19:52,980 --> 00:20:06,440 There were 50 people in our place. A lot (more) ran away. But there, where I was - 50 people. 278 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:16,730 Where he was, there were fifty. But there were many more. 279 00:20:16,730 --> 00:20:18,860 Alone Aviators were looking and searching. 280 00:20:18,860 --> 00:20:18,860 Yes, I know. 281 00:20:18,860 --> 00:20:21,704 We decided among us that there are too many people. We should 282 00:20:21,704 --> 00:20:24,410 divide into small There was me, Dov Freyberg there who 283 00:20:24,410 --> 00:20:27,260 Yes, yes. 284 00:20:27,260 --> 00:20:28,550 died two years ago, one more boy from Radom 285 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:29,120 Yes. 286 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:30,340 We left. 287 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:42,070 The three of you. 288 00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:42,070 Three. 289 00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:42,070 Yes. 290 00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:42,070 We were walking 15 days. 291 00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:42,070 On foot. 292 00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:42,070 Eeeee 293 00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:42,070 We were walking 15 days. 294 00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:42,070 Fifty days. 295 00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:42,070 Fifteen days, yes. 296 00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:48,624 We were nearby Chelm, 5 km from Chelm in the forest, we 297 00:20:48,624 --> 00:20:55,060 met two brothers who escaped from the Chelm execution. 298 00:20:55,060 --> 00:20:55,520 What’s ‘egzookotsye’? 299 00:20:55,520 --> 00:21:00,340 Eee they at the forest near Chelm they found two brothers who, who escaped from execution. 300 00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:02,700 Yes. Which execution? 301 00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:02,700 Near Chelm there were 302 00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:06,040 On that day all Jews from Chem were killed. And they ran away. 303 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:15,900 They shot everybody from Chelm, the Jews. And these two boys ran away. 304 00:21:15,900 --> 00:21:16,950 OK, OK. I understand. 305 00:21:16,950 --> 00:21:57,570 A This is one of them. It is Dov Freyberg. I took this (photo). I was in a hospital, in Lodz. 306 00:21:57,570 --> 00:21:57,570 Moment, moment. 307 00:21:57,570 --> 00:21:57,570 Sorry. 308 00:21:57,570 --> 00:21:57,570 (photo shown from 21’26’’ to 21’53’’) 309 00:21:57,570 --> 00:22:02,980 It was in 1945. In March 1945 it (the photo) was taken in Lodz. 310 00:22:03,460 --> 00:22:05,400 This is picture number one. 311 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:10,960 Yes. On the left is - who? Who are these people, on the left it’s 312 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:11,480 It is me. 313 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:12,630 Here. 314 00:22:12,730 --> 00:22:18,511 This is Dov Freyberg (Pakoynyi.[? . He’s also dead already. Two brothers: 315 00:22:18,511 --> 00:22:23,290 Maniek and Jozek from Chelm. This is Jozek, he died in Israel. 316 00:22:23,290 --> 00:22:28,790 And on the right? And the others? 317 00:22:28,790 --> 00:22:35,390 I don’t know. This was a friend. I don’t I met him 318 00:22:35,390 --> 00:22:35,390 ( ) 319 00:22:35,390 --> 00:22:36,930 I met him 320 00:22:36,930 --> 00:22:53,100 OK, so you met him? 321 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:56,270 You met these two brothers? 322 00:22:56,270 --> 00:23:00,741 These two brothers. There lived eee With the four of them - Czechoslovakian 323 00:23:00,741 --> 00:23:04,930 Jews, they escaped from another camp. Four Jews who ran away from our camp 324 00:23:04,930 --> 00:23:07,930 joined us three days later. We were back in 15 days. 325 00:23:07,930 --> 00:23:11,927 There they met four guys from Czechoslovakia who ran away from another 326 00:23:11,927 --> 00:23:15,810 camp and four eee of from Sobibor who arrived three days later. 327 00:23:15,810 --> 00:23:25,000 Can he Can you please ask him to look a little bit at me? 328 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:25,150 And now look at her hehehe 329 00:23:25,150 --> 00:23:33,310 Yes. Good. In eee in the forest there was a bunker hidden under ground. 330 00:23:33,310 --> 00:23:33,460 Yes. 331 00:23:33,460 --> 00:23:41,022 When we came with the three of us, the bunker was already too small. We made a new bunker. One-two 332 00:23:41,022 --> 00:23:48,585 kilometers from the old one. If one is caught (found), the other would be able Nine people moved 333 00:23:48,585 --> 00:23:56,380 to the new bunker and four Jews from Sobibor stayed in the old bunker. Bandits attacked the four Jews 334 00:23:56,380 --> 00:24:02,940 and three were killed and one came to us, to our bunker. He looks.. we should.. help. 335 00:24:02,940 --> 00:24:02,940 Emm 336 00:24:02,940 --> 00:24:03,140 So. 337 00:24:03,140 --> 00:24:11,640 There, there were two bunkers bu, bunkers. 338 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:11,960 Bunkers 339 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:12,100 Bunkers. 340 00:24:12,100 --> 00:24:13,380 One group stayed behind, yeah? 341 00:24:13,380 --> 00:24:24,864 And one the gangs went into one of them and killed three people. So the one of them ran 342 00:24:24,864 --> 00:24:35,340 away to their bunker and said: “we have to do something to help them, to help”. 343 00:24:35,340 --> 00:24:40,528 We were running away, three people were lying dead. We buried them, made 344 00:24:40,528 --> 00:24:45,140 a funeral. It’s what one should do. And then there was January 345 00:24:45,140 --> 00:24:49,390 Eee one moment . When they came 346 00:24:49,390 --> 00:24:50,780 They made a funeral. 347 00:24:50,780 --> 00:25:08,650 They made a funeral as was proper, for the three of them. 348 00:25:09,460 --> 00:25:12,910 January 1944, snow fell as well. The first snow. 349 00:25:12,910 --> 00:25:14,060 Yes. It was cold there. 350 00:25:14,060 --> 00:25:20,170 Maniek and Jozek went to the Poles for bread. 351 00:25:20,170 --> 00:25:20,380 Yes 352 00:25:20,380 --> 00:25:23,260 They had a lot of familiar Poles who gave us bread. 353 00:25:23,260 --> 00:25:24,230 Yes 354 00:25:24,230 --> 00:25:27,750 They left traces on the snow. 355 00:25:27,750 --> 00:25:28,610 Traces, yes. 356 00:25:28,610 --> 00:25:30,248 Our bunker was found We were attacked Two Czechoslovakian 357 00:25:30,248 --> 00:25:31,350 Jews were killed Kornishon and Shnabel. 358 00:25:31,710 --> 00:25:32,100 They found 359 00:25:32,100 --> 00:25:39,190 What happened to the Cz sl Czechs? 360 00:25:39,190 --> 00:25:42,360 Two of them were killed. They they found 361 00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:43,710 The traces, yes 362 00:25:43,710 --> 00:25:50,090 Yes, the traces so two of them were killed by by gangs of the from the Czechoslovaks. 363 00:25:50,850 --> 00:25:59,047 Kornishon and Shnabel. They were We buried them and left into the 364 00:25:59,047 --> 00:26:08,551 forest We were we split. The two Czechoslovakian Jews went to Czechoslovakia 365 00:26:08,551 --> 00:26:14,610 I don’t know where they Zilberman wrote to me 366 00:26:14,610 --> 00:26:14,610 Sorry, what did he say? 367 00:26:14,610 --> 00:26:22,675 Er They separated and they went into the forest. And the e.. the Czechs..ee.. went back to 368 00:26:22,675 --> 00:26:30,480 Czechoslovakia and he says that after the war he came ee he got letters from Zilberman. 369 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:40,787 On July 6, 1944 the Russian army liberated Lodz eee Chelm. I went to the commanding 370 00:26:40,787 --> 00:26:50,621 officer of Chelm and said: I was a a soldier, a Russian soldier, from the Russian 371 00:26:50,621 --> 00:26:57,729 army. I am a prisoner of war, I want to go back to the army. 372 00:26:57,730 --> 00:26:59,250 He came back, he went to Chelm. 373 00:26:59,250 --> 00:27:00,530 What's a "zelner"? 374 00:27:00,700 --> 00:27:02,700 Zelner - Soldat. Soldier. 375 00:27:02,700 --> 00:27:04,580 Soldier. 376 00:27:04,580 --> 00:27:25,870 I want to be a soldier again. 377 00:27:25,870 --> 00:27:33,682 It was July six eee forty four 1944. July 1944. I was sent I was questioned 378 00:27:33,682 --> 00:27:40,723 Two weeks I was Many people questioned me: how did I become why did 379 00:27:40,723 --> 00:27:46,800 I become a prisoner of war, how did I become a prisoner of war. 380 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:47,590 Yes. Of course. 381 00:27:47,590 --> 00:27:58,897 They thought that I was a policeman. I told them about my experiences from Sobibor. They understood 382 00:27:58,897 --> 00:28:10,090 that I am a right man, I’m not a fraud. I was sent back to the army. Three eee 360 division. 383 00:28:10,090 --> 00:28:10,510 Ja. 384 00:28:10,510 --> 00:28:15,600 29 army. I crossed the Vistula. I was already a soldier. 385 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,470 What is Visla? 386 00:28:18,620 --> 00:28:24,760 Vistula, the river Vistula. In Poland. 387 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:25,010 He went through the Vistula. To Poland. 388 00:28:25,010 --> 00:28:25,930 What's Vistula? 389 00:28:26,150 --> 00:28:28,050 The river Vistula. 390 00:28:28,050 --> 00:28:32,950 It’s a big river in Poland. 391 00:28:32,950 --> 00:28:33,170 Yes, I know. 392 00:28:33,170 --> 00:28:45,115 And we swam through Vistula and in Polaba, which is a town in Poland, we made a bridgehead. 393 00:28:45,115 --> 00:28:56,404 This is the river and here we crossed the river and here we erected a bridgehead - 14 394 00:28:56,404 --> 00:29:06,250 km wide and 35 km deep. We fortified there and we did not move any further. 395 00:29:06,250 --> 00:29:11,750 They went over the Vistula and they conquered the place of so 396 00:29:11,750 --> 00:29:16,800 and so kilometers and there they stood and did not move. 397 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:22,700 We stayed at the bridgehead till January 14, 1945. 398 00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:23,150 Yes. 399 00:29:23,150 --> 00:29:27,780 On January 14, 1945 we went further. 400 00:29:27,780 --> 00:29:45,010 Further in Poland. 401 00:29:45,010 --> 00:30:15,846 Poland. My division went to Poznan Poznan. First we were sent to Krakow and then we were switched 402 00:30:15,846 --> 00:30:42,010 to Poznan. In Poznan there was a big fortress (he says it in Russian) In Yiddish 403 00:30:42,010 --> 00:30:42,010 In Hebrew? 404 00:30:42,010 --> 00:30:43,180 In Hebrew? 405 00:30:43,180 --> 00:30:47,270 Misha, how is a fortress in Hebrew? 406 00:30:47,270 --> 00:30:48,250 [Brest a fortress 407 00:30:48,250 --> 00:30:49,270 A fortress. 408 00:30:49,270 --> 00:30:49,560 I understand. 409 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:55,100 A castle. 410 00:30:55,250 --> 00:30:57,470 It was the fortress of Poznan. 411 00:30:57,590 --> 00:30:58,530 What’s Poznan? 412 00:30:58,530 --> 00:30:59,420 A fortress. 413 00:30:59,420 --> 00:31:01,170 Eee A place which is armoured around. 414 00:31:01,170 --> 00:31:01,170 Fortified. Yes. 415 00:31:01,170 --> 00:31:01,170 Fortified. Yes. 416 00:31:01,170 --> 00:31:01,170 Armon! (Rus.??.[? 417 00:31:01,170 --> 00:31:01,170 Armoured castle, yes. 418 00:31:01,170 --> 00:31:02,350 Amon. Ja. 419 00:31:04,740 --> 00:31:05,921 There on January 19 I was wounded. It was in Poznan. They wanted to 420 00:31:05,921 --> 00:31:07,050 amputate my fingers. They had gangrene, my fingers had gangrene. 421 00:31:07,050 --> 00:31:07,050 It’s a grenade. 422 00:31:07,050 --> 00:31:12,826 Here the bullet entered and here it left. They had gangrene. I went 423 00:31:12,826 --> 00:31:17,740 to the hospital and I was discharged at the end of April. 424 00:31:24,290 --> 00:31:35,060 In the end of April he was released from hospital. 425 00:31:35,860 --> 00:31:47,260 to Berlin. I wasn’t an active soldier any more. I was already a Нестроевой (Rus.) not 426 00:31:51,950 --> 00:31:55,880 He was not an active soldier any more because he was injured. 427 00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:07,913 ( .[? they did not allow me to be with In Berlin I was in Truppenwirtschaftslager 428 00:32:07,913 --> 00:32:19,522 Ger.: troops supply camp. I was a manager of the security which was there. For the 429 00:32:19,522 --> 00:32:29,150 army, for the Russian army there was a lot of flour, marmalade with 430 00:32:29,150 --> 00:32:29,340 Ah, yes. 431 00:32:29,340 --> 00:32:29,890 SpM Truppenwirtschaftslager. 432 00:32:29,890 --> 00:32:37,430 He was not an active soldier any more but he was in the warehouse. He had to 433 00:32:50,580 --> 00:32:50,900 Sort. 434 00:32:50,900 --> 00:32:52,370 To sort, yes. 435 00:32:52,370 --> 00:32:58,160 SpM I was the manager of the security. Of the 436 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,080 Yes. He was the control He was in the control of it. 437 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:06,480 In October, at the end of October, November 1944 I was released. 438 00:33:07,380 --> 00:33:10,530 He was released end of October. 439 00:33:10,530 --> 00:33:20,236 Well there, I already wet to my place, to Ternivka, I went to the grave 440 00:33:20,236 --> 00:33:29,260 there, then I went to a town, which I was a photographer I was 441 00:33:29,260 --> 00:33:37,910 He was a photographer and he went back to his place. 442 00:33:37,910 --> 00:33:40,220 Well, I went to 443 00:33:40,220 --> 00:33:40,420 To Ukraine? 444 00:33:40,420 --> 00:33:42,500 In 1975 I went to Odessa. In 1945 I went to Odessa. 445 00:33:42,500 --> 00:33:42,600 Odessa? 446 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:50,980 Yes. And from Odessa in 1990 I came here. Together with my sons, with grandchildren. 447 00:33:50,980 --> 00:33:56,026 And in year 1990 he came back from Odessa, he came to Israel 448 00:33:56,026 --> 00:33:59,980 with all his family - his wife and his children 449 00:33:59,980 --> 00:33:59,980 ( .[? 450 00:33:59,980 --> 00:34:04,970 and his grandchildren. So this is the story. 451 00:34:04,970 --> 00:34:09,410 I would like to understand the ( .[? more specifically. 452 00:34:09,410 --> 00:34:13,200 What does she want to know? 453 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,020 How ( ? with your village in Ukraine? Talk about your village, please. 454 00:34:15,020 --> 00:34:16,250 About your village. 455 00:34:16,250 --> 00:34:21,252 Ternivka. It was a Jewish shtetl. It was Jewish tailors, merchants. A lot! Tailors, merchants. 456 00:34:21,252 --> 00:34:25,890 There was a windmill. Two windmills. There was a where one makes grupn (Rus..[? From 457 00:34:25,890 --> 00:34:30,059 all around people used to come to Ternivka People used to live not a bad life. 458 00:34:30,060 --> 00:34:30,060 Lived well? 459 00:34:30,060 --> 00:34:30,060 Well. 460 00:34:30,060 --> 00:34:30,060 Yes. 461 00:34:30,060 --> 00:34:32,290 There was a market. 462 00:34:32,290 --> 00:34:32,910 A market. 463 00:34:32,910 --> 00:34:49,250 A market. A big market. People from other villages (people) used to come to the market. Flour, ? 464 00:34:49,250 --> 00:35:04,910 , cheese, everything, everything Jews used to buy. It was good for them, it was good for us. 465 00:35:04,910 --> 00:35:05,060 Aha. 466 00:35:05,060 --> 00:35:10,430 But the Germans came, they said: all the Jews stay here. 467 00:35:10,580 --> 00:35:29,090 These are the people who remained these are from Ternivka? 468 00:35:29,090 --> 00:35:38,000 This is Ternivka. These are the Jews who survived 469 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:38,000 ] 470 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,730 After the war? 471 00:35:40,730 --> 00:35:41,440 After the war. 472 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:48,000 After the was. It was year 1960. 473 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:48,740 Year 1960. 474 00:35:48,740 --> 00:35:49,630 Year 1960. 475 00:35:56,290 --> 00:35:57,080 1960. 476 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:02,100 Picture two is an image of what's the name of the village? 477 00:36:02,100 --> 00:36:03,260 Ternivka. 478 00:36:03,260 --> 00:36:06,030 Of Ternivka. It's picture two. 479 00:36:06,210 --> 00:36:08,420 It’s Vinnica region. Ukraine, Vinnica region. 480 00:36:08,420 --> 00:36:09,070 It's Ukraine, Vinnica? 481 00:36:09,070 --> 00:36:09,390 Vinnica. 482 00:36:09,390 --> 00:36:09,770 Vinnica region. 483 00:36:09,770 --> 00:36:16,090 Vinnica. It is a town of our 484 00:36:16,090 --> 00:36:20,812 Yes. And it’s the inhabitants of the village which remained in 1946. Tell me, 485 00:36:20,812 --> 00:36:25,594 did you have good relations with your neighbours? Your Ukrainian neighbours? Were 486 00:36:25,594 --> 00:36:29,550 you friendly with your Ukrainian neighbours? Not Jewish, Ukrainian. 487 00:36:29,550 --> 00:36:29,750 What were your relations with the Ukrainian population eee neighbours? 488 00:36:29,750 --> 00:36:30,590 Good. Good. Everything fine. 489 00:36:30,590 --> 00:36:30,590 ( ) 490 00:36:30,590 --> 00:36:41,591 My father was a tailor. He had a lot of work. There was one tailor 491 00:36:41,591 --> 00:36:51,760 in each village and my father’s village was called Viknene. 492 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:52,850 What’s a Viknene? 493 00:36:53,410 --> 00:36:54,490 Viknene. It’s a village, Viknene. 494 00:36:54,490 --> 00:37:12,920 There was a place, a village. It’s a name of a village. 495 00:37:18,250 --> 00:37:18,710 A village a Viknene. 496 00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:23,650 I remember that in 1932 I went to There was nothing to eat in Ukraine there was famine! 497 00:37:23,650 --> 00:37:38,050 In the year 1932 there was huger in Ukraine, it was the hunger period and 498 00:37:40,670 --> 00:37:42,530 You went to ? 499 00:37:42,530 --> 00:37:45,364 With my father I walked 10 km. I was 10 years old. We went on foot to Veiknene 500 00:37:45,364 --> 00:37:47,800 and there already there was already fresh bread. We ate a little. 501 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:47,800 He travelled 10 km to get bread? 502 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:55,405 10 km and he was a 10 years old child. He went with his father to the village 503 00:37:55,405 --> 00:38:01,430 and here was already bread, fresh bread, and they brought it. 504 00:38:01,430 --> 00:38:15,220 So How many brothers and sisters did you ? How many How many brothers and sisters did you have? 505 00:38:15,220 --> 00:38:17,460 How many brothers and sisters did you have? 506 00:38:17,460 --> 00:38:25,598 I had two sisters. But they One sister was in Kazakhstan They survived. 507 00:38:25,598 --> 00:38:35,039 The other sister In Dalny Vostok her husband was a soldier, she moved to Vladivostok. 508 00:38:35,039 --> 00:38:41,550 They survived. My sisters survived. They died after the war. 509 00:38:41,550 --> 00:38:42,600 And your parents? 510 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:43,210 And parents? 511 00:38:43,210 --> 00:38:48,400 My parents lie there. 512 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,830 This is the memory for them. 513 00:38:50,830 --> 00:38:50,830 Yes. 514 00:38:50,830 --> 00:39:00,630 The whole family lies there. All, all of them lie. 515 00:39:00,630 --> 00:39:08,681 Ehm You will have to translate now. I want him to talk about his Friday evening 516 00:39:08,681 --> 00:39:15,440 in his house. About going to school. Can he start to try to do that? 517 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,358 Can you tell us how the Friday evening used to look at your home? 518 00:39:17,358 --> 00:39:19,130 How you went to the synagogue. Simply, how your life looked. 519 00:39:19,130 --> 00:39:32,180 Life In 1930 I was in a Jewish school. In 1930 I went to the first the first grade. 520 00:39:32,180 --> 00:39:44,940 In the first grade. In a Jewish school. There, in the Jewish school, I learnt till 1936. 521 00:39:44,940 --> 00:39:51,280 I want to ask I want to ask 522 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:51,280 What? 523 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:56,080 A Jewish school is where you learnt Yiddish or Hebrew? 524 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:56,080 No! Yiddish]! 525 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:57,050 Please, don’t do this! This is absolutely 526 00:39:57,090 --> 00:40:07,500 Yiddish]! We have not been taught Hebrew in our school. 527 00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:13,890 I have understood so please, don't I know the region. Please. Sorry. 528 00:40:13,890 --> 00:40:14,880 OK. 529 00:40:16,830 --> 00:40:17,020 Yes? 530 00:40:17,020 --> 00:40:30,600 In 1936 I graduated from the Jewish school and I moved to an Ukrainian school. 531 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:30,780 1937? 532 00:40:30,780 --> 00:40:37,920 1936. In 1936 I graduated from the Jewish school and all Jews went to the Ukrainian school. 533 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:38,550 Why? 534 00:40:38,550 --> 00:40:42,720 They made the Jews do it. The Jewish school It has been said: enough! 535 00:40:43,790 --> 00:40:47,900 In the year 1936 he went to the Ukrainian 536 00:40:47,900 --> 00:40:50,130 1937 to the Ukrainian school. 537 00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:50,870 Because 538 00:40:50,870 --> 00:40:51,430 Yes. OK? 539 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,380 Because eee they said it's enough. Now you go to 540 00:40:57,380 --> 00:41:00,150 Who said? Who said it's enough? 541 00:41:00,150 --> 00:41:01,570 Who said that you have to 542 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,550 Stalin said It’s everything from Stalin. 543 00:41:07,550 --> 00:41:09,160 It was from above. 544 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:20,600 From above. Emmm Please can you talk about the difference between the two schools. 545 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:28,780 And what was the difference between these two schools? Between the Jewish 546 00:41:28,780 --> 00:41:37,390 Here one learnt Yiddish and there we learnt only Ukrainian and Russian. 547 00:41:37,390 --> 00:41:42,440 But were there also non-[Jewish children in class? Was it more mixed? 548 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:56,220 It was mixed. In our class there were 8 Jews. The rest was Ukrainian. And it was 549 00:41:56,220 --> 00:42:10,681 we used to there was nothing between us. The headmaster was a Jew]! He graduated 550 00:42:10,681 --> 00:42:22,080 from an university, a Russian university. He taught us mathematics. 551 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:22,390 I understood. 552 00:42:22,390 --> 00:42:30,960 A Jew. 553 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:31,110 Mhm. 554 00:42:31,110 --> 00:42:43,560 Later there was an Ukrainian, Kovaltchuk. Everything was fine. 555 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:43,560 Mhm. 556 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:43,560 We learnt together, everything fine. 557 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:43,560 No anti-semitism? 558 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:44,430 No. Maybe hidden inside there was. 559 00:42:45,330 --> 00:42:47,150 Perhaps inside there was but not outside. 560 00:42:47,150 --> 00:42:48,550 There was a discipline. People were afraid. 561 00:42:48,550 --> 00:42:49,160 Mhm. 562 00:42:49,350 --> 00:42:51,290 Before the war some Jews were important people. Later Stalin ( .[? drove Jews out. 563 00:42:51,290 --> 00:43:00,835 It was forbidden. Anti-semitism was forbidden by the authorities. And 564 00:43:00,835 --> 00:43:09,550 the Jews had good positions. Only after the war things changed. 565 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:13,720 OK, so let us come back to Friday evening to family life. 566 00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:13,720 Friday evening at home. How did it look? 567 00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:25,513 It was not a big room at our place My father was a tailor. There was a big room where he used 568 00:43:25,513 --> 00:43:37,555 to work There was an alcove. I was sleeping on a couch And in the alcove there were two beds. 569 00:43:37,555 --> 00:43:49,224 And between them there stood a table. And there was light. On friday evening my mother used to 570 00:43:49,224 --> 00:43:59,280 come inside, light the candles. So I think every Friday evening she used to bless 571 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:05,804 Every Friday she would lit the candles and also when the 572 00:44:05,804 --> 00:44:11,630 beginning of the of a month she would also pray. 573 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:14,440 Mhm. Was it religious upbringing? Was it religion? 574 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,840 Was it a religious upbringing? 575 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,270 What is it? 576 00:44:22,010 --> 00:44:23,110 A religious home? 577 00:44:23,110 --> 00:44:31,887 No, it wasn’t a religious home, not a religious one On Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, 578 00:44:31,887 --> 00:44:40,354 Pesach we used to go to the synagogue. Otherwise not. Not a religious home Eee 579 00:44:40,354 --> 00:44:47,480 home. Only on Friday evening our mother used to light the candles. 580 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:54,682 It wasn't a religious home but Friday evening they would put on the lights and Rosh Hashanah, 581 00:44:54,682 --> 00:45:01,110 Yom Kippur and Pesach they went to shib Yid. to the shul Yid. to the synagogue] 582 00:45:01,780 --> 00:45:09,612 You just told that you were ten when the “big hunger” was there. He was 583 00:45:09,612 --> 00:45:17,340 ten years old when the “big hunger” was there. Just translate, please. 584 00:45:17,340 --> 00:45:20,530 You were there when the “big hunger” was there when you were ten years old. 585 00:45:20,650 --> 00:45:22,170 Yes. In 1932. 586 00:45:22,170 --> 00:45:30,210 Yes. Well, how did you talk about it? Did you know it was part of Soviet policy or? 587 00:45:30,210 --> 00:45:36,650 How did you understand it? Did you understand that it was a Soviet policy? How did you 588 00:45:36,650 --> 00:45:47,683 I did not understand the reason at all! I knew that there is no rain. There was 589 00:45:47,683 --> 00:45:57,600 no rain. It was so dry! There was no rain so there was nothing to eat. 590 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,200 He understood there were no rains and therefore the wheat did not grow. 591 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:14,880 One couldn’t do anything It was The fields were empty. There was hunger. 592 00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:15,580 There was no rain. 593 00:46:17,190 --> 00:46:20,220 How did you Did you know about communism? 594 00:46:20,220 --> 00:46:29,228 I haven’t thought about the communism, not at all. The small shtetl what communism 595 00:46:29,228 --> 00:46:36,980 It was Afterwards I understood, after the war I understood everything. 596 00:46:36,980 --> 00:46:46,870 After the war he understood communism but not when he was in the village. 597 00:46:47,030 --> 00:46:53,790 OK, so did you know the Germans were dangerous? 598 00:46:53,790 --> 00:46:53,790 But did you know that Germans are dangerous? 599 00:46:53,790 --> 00:47:04,016 I knew. I knew, movies have been shown such as: “Family Oppenheimer”, “Professor 600 00:47:04,016 --> 00:47:12,460 Mamlock”. There were movies, we saw them before the war, we knew what 601 00:47:12,460 --> 00:47:16,710 He knew because there were movies. 602 00:47:16,710 --> 00:47:17,960 Well, what could we have done? 603 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:18,210 Movies. 604 00:47:18,210 --> 00:47:21,590 Yes? Talk what did he more say? He had 605 00:47:21,590 --> 00:47:21,590 "Professor Mamlock" 606 00:47:21,890 --> 00:47:22,920 What is that? 607 00:47:23,250 --> 00:47:23,690 A movie. 608 00:47:23,690 --> 00:47:25,810 “Family Oppenheimer”, movies which existed before the war. 609 00:47:25,810 --> 00:47:26,100 "Oppenheimers" 610 00:47:26,100 --> 00:47:34,638 They have been shown before the war, these movies. Russian movies 611 00:47:34,638 --> 00:47:42,520 in which it was shown how in Germany Jews are being beaten. 612 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:49,930 There were Soviet movies which showed what they do to the Jews in Germany. How they bit them. 613 00:47:49,930 --> 00:47:53,203 Nobody left straight from Ternivka because there was no railroad. Ternivka, shtetl Ternivka. 614 00:47:53,203 --> 00:47:56,300 The Jews stayed, because they could not run away. The railroad was 30 km from Ternivka. 615 00:47:56,300 --> 00:47:57,940 From Ternivke they could not run away because the 616 00:47:57,940 --> 00:47:57,940 train 617 00:47:57,940 --> 00:47:59,070 railways were not there. Only thirty kilometer 618 00:47:59,070 --> 00:48:03,173 Therefore, the Jews stayed. There was no possibility to escape. I wasn’t 619 00:48:03,173 --> 00:48:06,730 there I was in the army and my sisters were not at home either. 620 00:48:06,730 --> 00:48:32,800 Was it normal for a Jewish boy to go to the army? 621 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:39,470 Was it normal for a Jewish boy to go to the army? 622 00:48:39,470 --> 00:48:45,100 Why not? I was a patriot! I was defending I was a patriot! 623 00:48:45,100 --> 00:48:57,400 How old were you? 624 00:48:59,820 --> 00:49:06,410 Eighteen. In 1940 I was 18 years old. I went to the army. 625 00:49:06,410 --> 00:49:15,290 I understand. OK. How was it in the army? 626 00:49:15,910 --> 00:49:18,250 How was it in the army? 627 00:49:18,250 --> 00:49:22,060 It was very hard in the army. 628 00:49:22,060 --> 00:49:22,060 Why? 629 00:49:22,060 --> 00:49:31,410 Like in any army Hard. Later we got used to it. I was a soldier, not a bad one. 630 00:49:31,410 --> 00:49:33,670 And it was hard but he got used to it, like in any army. 631 00:49:33,670 --> 00:49:44,560 Can you tell a little more? Why was it hard? 632 00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:53,330 Can you maybe tell us more? What were the hardships? 633 00:49:53,330 --> 00:49:53,330 Cold? 634 00:49:53,330 --> 00:49:57,840 Hardships Do I know what a hardship is? Life is a hardship, isn’t 635 00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:01,900 it? ( .[? That everything passes - it is a hardship! Poverty! 636 00:50:01,900 --> 00:50:25,610 Did you have enough food in the army? 637 00:50:25,610 --> 00:50:30,340 In Ternivka? In the army? Good. Good food. 638 00:50:30,340 --> 00:50:30,340 And (..?.) food as well? 639 00:50:30,340 --> 00:50:30,940 And kosher? 640 00:50:30,940 --> 00:50:43,210 No. No kosher food. No. No kosher. In the army we were getting all the same. 641 00:50:43,210 --> 00:50:44,160 Ja. 642 00:50:45,180 --> 00:50:49,400 There were from Turkey Turkish Jews, well, from Reza no, Rezanya 643 00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:50,090 Reza 644 00:50:50,090 --> 00:50:51,440 Grozny, there were Islamic 645 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,370 There were Jews from Georgia. 646 00:50:53,370 --> 00:50:58,500 Jews from there were eating everything, just like me. There was no choice. 647 00:50:58,500 --> 00:51:01,280 They ate everything. There was no choice. 648 00:51:01,930 --> 00:51:05,080 Nothing kosher. All the same. 649 00:51:05,540 --> 00:51:20,885 OK. When you for the first time heard of the German army? When was 650 00:51:20,885 --> 00:51:35,300 this? When did he heard for the first time of the German army? 651 00:51:35,300 --> 00:51:37,810 When did you hear for the first time of the German army? 652 00:51:37,810 --> 00:51:39,824 The German army? I heard everything when they occupied Austria , when they occupied 653 00:51:39,824 --> 00:51:41,450 Czechoslovakia I knew everything I read newspapers Everything 654 00:51:41,450 --> 00:51:43,950 I knew everything because I read the papers. 655 00:51:43,950 --> 00:51:46,090 That was not my question. 656 00:51:46,090 --> 00:51:46,750 So? 657 00:51:47,130 --> 00:51:56,540 Sorry, it's OK. When did he When did his department of the army for the first meet Germans? 658 00:52:00,050 --> 00:52:09,760 A! When did you come into contact with the Germans? For the first time. 659 00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,300 For the first time? 660 00:52:12,300 --> 00:52:12,780 In the army. 661 00:52:12,780 --> 00:52:14,190 In the army I wasn’t in contact I came into contact when I was already a prisoner of war. 662 00:52:14,190 --> 00:52:24,160 In the army when he was he was not in contact with the Germans. Only when he was a prisoner of war. 663 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:30,150 How was he made 664 00:52:30,150 --> 00:52:38,810 I was an artilleryman. I was shooting from afar 665 00:52:38,810 --> 00:52:38,810 Yes. Where? Where? 666 00:52:38,810 --> 00:52:42,352 Where? Berezina, there was heavy shooting, we destroyed seven 667 00:52:42,352 --> 00:52:45,430 tanks. Panzers, seven Panzers we destroyed. Berezina. 668 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:52,202 Can he please I'm trying What is happening now is that we're getting into this 669 00:52:52,202 --> 00:52:57,499 answer and question and you really have to avoid this. Can he please try to start 670 00:52:57,499 --> 00:53:02,600 talking how he was taken prisoner of war in as much detail as he can remember. 671 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:18,600 How did it happen How did you become you became a prisoner of war? How did it happen? 672 00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:35,733 It happened between Mogilov and Smolensk. A bomb has fallen not far away. I was injured, 673 00:53:35,733 --> 00:53:53,255 a contusion of A piece of the bomb iron hit me here, in the foot But it didn’t cut 674 00:53:53,255 --> 00:54:09,610 off I had a wound, it got infected. And this is how I became a prisoner of war. 675 00:54:09,610 --> 00:54:16,888 And Can he talk further how it happened He must talk, please, ask him 676 00:54:16,888 --> 00:54:23,970 Please ask him to talk, don't get him to this question and answer play. 677 00:54:23,970 --> 00:54:24,170 You were wounded. 678 00:54:24,170 --> 00:54:24,170 Yes. 679 00:54:24,170 --> 00:54:25,150 And And then came 680 00:54:25,150 --> 00:54:42,435 We were brought, driven to Minsk to Minsk In Minsk there was a (..?.) camp for 80000 prisoners 681 00:54:42,435 --> 00:54:59,191 of war. In Minsk. We were divided: Russians - out!, Ukrainians - out!, Jews went out. I already 682 00:54:59,191 --> 00:55:12,420 told, 230 Jews left, they were brought to the Minsk camp on Szeroka street. 683 00:55:12,420 --> 00:55:19,540 How was it in the camp? 684 00:55:19,540 --> 00:55:21,850 How Tell us about the camp . Tell us about the Minsk camp. 685 00:55:21,850 --> 00:55:32,713 I’m telling. While in the camp, we used to receive food once a day. No bread, not at all. A 686 00:55:32,713 --> 00:55:43,460 lot of people died from hunger. Until spring 1942 maybe 15 Jews remained from the total 230. 687 00:55:43,460 --> 00:55:43,650 And then? 688 00:55:43,650 --> 00:55:51,105 Then Then more Jews were brought We started to work, we started to get better food. And after 689 00:55:51,105 --> 00:55:58,329 work we used to get a bit of potatoes. Life became a bit easier, nobody was dying from hunger. 690 00:55:58,329 --> 00:56:05,170 In spring 1942 everybody was getting food. We used to go work We were receiving food. 691 00:56:07,970 --> 00:56:14,480 I do have a last question before I suggest to stop. 692 00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,160 One more One more question before 693 00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:22,100 When you went to the army, did you see your parents for the last time? 694 00:56:22,100 --> 00:56:25,710 When you went to the army, did you see your parents for the last time? 695 00:56:25,710 --> 00:56:32,340 Yes, it was November 1940. I said goodbye to them. We did not see each other later 696 00:56:32,340 --> 00:56:42,030 Please, tell me. How did it happen? 697 00:56:42,030 --> 00:56:45,600 How did it happen? The 698 00:56:51,400 --> 00:57:02,381 November came, we with a paper from the War Committee division I came to a division I 699 00:57:02,381 --> 00:57:13,363 was sent I came to Daugavpils, Latvia. It was November 1940. It has just been decided for 700 00:57:13,363 --> 00:57:23,500 our soldiers to be sent to Latvia and I came to Latvia. Daugavpils in November 1940. 701 00:57:23,500 --> 00:57:23,680 And how Where were your parents when you? 702 00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:23,680 Where were your parents? 703 00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:23,680 They stayed in Ternovka. 704 00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:23,680 They remained in Ternovka. 705 00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:23,680 stayed in Ternivka. 706 00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:27,490 Were they in the room or in the gate or Did they stand in the 707 00:57:27,490 --> 00:57:31,120 door, in the room? Tell me, please! Where were they? Where?! 708 00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:48,880 They remained at home. 709 00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:48,990 Where? 710 00:57:48,990 --> 00:57:52,320 What does she want? 711 00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:53,620 What does she want? 712 00:57:53,620 --> 00:57:56,260 Where did they Where did they stay, the parents? 713 00:57:56,260 --> 00:57:56,260 In their room. 714 00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:58,670 In the room. 715 00:57:58,670 --> 00:58:00,440 But 716 00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,020 In their room! 717 00:58:08,020 --> 00:58:25,380 But when he did see them for the last time Where? 718 00:58:25,380 --> 00:58:29,380 When you saw them for the last time. 719 00:58:29,380 --> 00:58:31,330 In November 1940. 720 00:58:31,330 --> 00:58:32,100 Where were they? 721 00:58:32,100 --> 00:58:41,840 In the room. In the room. I left and they stayed in the room. 722 00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:43,470 And you really said goodbye. 723 00:58:43,470 --> 00:58:44,480 And then you said 724 00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:46,228 I didn’t tell them anything Who could have known 725 00:58:46,228 --> 00:58:47,910 that we will be sent and will receive an order now 726 00:58:47,910 --> 00:58:53,850 Who could have He left, who could have saw that it would be the last time. 727 00:58:53,850 --> 00:58:59,660 We didn’t know that we will have to fight on the territories of the enemy. 728 00:58:59,660 --> 00:59:13,790 Who could have thought about it that he will afterwards have to fight on territoria of the enemy. 729 00:59:13,790 --> 00:59:13,930 Yes. 730 00:59:13,930 --> 00:59:15,250 Pause. Pause. I take a picture of you now. 731 00:59:15,250 --> 00:59:18,550 I am already a bit tired and would like to finish. 732 00:59:18,550 --> 00:59:19,240 I believe so. 733 00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:21,840 and finish Say it, we’re finishing 734 00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:27,978 I came I was told that to Khoschevato, a town, there came my father’s brother. 735 00:59:27,978 --> 00:59:34,490 This is his daughter. We met. She came back from the army. I met her, we had a wedding 736 00:59:34,490 --> 00:59:40,029 on January 15, 1946. We had a wedding and we live, thanks God, till today. 737 00:59:40,030 --> 00:59:45,460 He went back to the shtetl? 738 00:59:45,460 --> 00:59:58,480 You went back to the shtetl? 739 00:59:59,390 --> 00:59:59,780 What? 740 00:59:59,780 --> 01:00:08,630 After the war, did you come back to the shtetl? 741 01:00:08,630 --> 01:00:12,220 I haven’t been in Ternivka for a long lime because those people 742 01:00:12,220 --> 01:00:15,370 were dead. I went to Khoschevato to my uncle, there I met 743 01:00:16,070 --> 01:00:23,141 He did not remain in the village, in Ternivka, because 744 01:00:23,141 --> 01:00:29,820 no one remained there so he went to his uncle in ? 745 01:00:29,820 --> 01:00:30,670 Where was it? 746 01:00:30,670 --> 01:00:31,370 Khoschevato. Shtetl Khoschevato. 747 01:00:31,370 --> 01:00:40,280 There he met his wife. His her whom he married 748 01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:40,970 In January 1946? 749 01:00:40,970 --> 01:01:01,510 In 1946. 750 01:01:01,510 --> 01:01:03,060 And they married. 751 01:01:03,060 --> 01:01:03,550 She’s Jewish? 752 01:01:03,550 --> 01:01:03,970 Is she Jewish? 753 01:01:03,970 --> 01:01:03,970 Yes! Her father is Yosl 754 01:01:03,970 --> 01:01:03,970 (..?.) eyes! Haha! 755 01:01:03,970 --> 01:01:03,970 Yosl. 756 01:01:03,970 --> 01:01:05,640 Her father Her father is Yosl and 757 01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:07,830 Her mother’s brother, my father. He is Moyshe. 758 01:01:08,670 --> 01:01:10,450 And they are connected in the family. 759 01:01:10,450 --> 01:01:10,630 It’s my second my sister second line Her father - my father were brothers. 760 01:01:10,630 --> 01:01:11,250 They're cousins. 761 01:01:11,250 --> 01:01:14,580 Und Wie war das Wie heisst die What's the name of the village where she lived? 762 01:01:14,580 --> 01:01:22,750 In which shtetl did she live? 763 01:01:22,750 --> 01:01:24,910 She was living in Khoschevato. 764 01:01:24,910 --> 01:01:26,760 In Khoschevato. There. 765 01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:27,720 It was 20 km from Ternivka, 30 km from Ternivka. 30 km from Ternivka. 766 01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:31,580 And was she also in a concentration camp? 767 01:01:31,580 --> 01:01:34,840 No, she was a soldier, she was a soldier in the army! 768 01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:34,840 a soldier. 769 01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:35,210 Misha, show mother’s war-time photograph! 770 01:01:35,210 --> 01:01:36,770 I would like to take photos, of course! 771 01:01:36,770 --> 01:01:37,420 There, under the glass. Go on. 772 01:01:37,420 --> 01:01:38,700 SpM Should I tell them already that they need to finish soon? 773 01:01:38,700 --> 01:01:38,700 I already told them. 774 01:01:38,700 --> 01:01:39,100 She’s beautiful! 775 01:01:39,100 --> 01:01:52,250 [voice of the son in the background] 776 01:01:52,250 --> 01:01:54,390 No. I already have a headache. Enough. 777 01:01:54,390 --> 01:01:59,540 [voice of the son in the background] 778 01:02:10,290 --> 01:02:13,260 She’s leaving on Tuesday. 779 01:02:13,260 --> 01:02:36,760 What kind of a person was it? What kind of a man was it? 780 01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:41,195 It was a good organizer, Pechersky. After the war I found I didn’t know that he is alive. 781 01:02:41,195 --> 01:02:45,345 I didn’t know that Pechersky is alive. I found Pechersky in 1963. In 1963 I found out 782 01:02:45,345 --> 01:02:49,542 that Pechersky is alive. I found out that Vayspapir is alive. I went to Rastov, there we 783 01:02:49,542 --> 01:02:53,692 met. They visited me in Gayvoron where I worked 25 years.. Gayvoron was a town of 20000 784 01:02:53,692 --> 01:02:57,270 people. I worked 25 years in Gayvoron. Before Odessa, I worked in Gayvoron. 785 01:02:57,270 --> 01:03:07,841 I’ve been in my townmany times. I was in Rastov. There in 1963 we organized a 20th anniversary 786 01:03:07,841 --> 01:03:16,210 of the uprising. In 1978 we organized the 25th anniversary of the uprising. 787 01:03:16,210 --> 01:03:16,210 Was it a good man? 788 01:03:16,210 --> 01:03:24,490 Pechersky? He was a good man. His (..?.) was not Jewish but Russian but he was a good person. 789 01:03:24,490 --> 01:03:24,700 [break] 790 01:03:24,700 --> 01:03:26,896 [?] Er, exactly what you need, because he can’t do it for a long time, 791 01:03:26,896 --> 01:03:28,940 so he wants to, er, exactly what, what you still need, what is that 792 01:03:28,940 --> 01:03:33,116 Well I love to, of course, to know what’s on the pictures, it’s unexpected, 793 01:03:33,116 --> 01:03:36,976 and I had two questions, I told them to you. I first would like to talk a 794 01:03:36,976 --> 01:03:40,360 little bit about his life after he was after the war was ended. 795 01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:45,288 And I want to talk a little bit about this picture of forty-six, 796 01:03:45,288 --> 01:03:49,600 about the survivors that he explains to me who they are. 797 01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:50,950 This one? 798 01:03:50,950 --> 01:03:53,100 No it’s this one, the one he showed me yesterday. 799 01:03:53,100 --> 01:03:55,691 She has She will be glad to talk also about the photograph(s) and, if there will 800 01:03:55,691 --> 01:03:58,346 be time left, or if you’re comfortable with it, but I have two of those big, two, 801 01:03:58,346 --> 01:04:00,810 two big, big interests. She would like to know about your life after the war. 802 01:04:05,220 --> 01:04:07,180 After the war. 803 01:04:07,490 --> 01:04:09,070 After the war. 804 01:04:09,300 --> 01:04:09,670 So 805 01:04:09,670 --> 01:04:21,693 That’s one thing, and another: yesterday you showed her (a) picture(s) of year, the year 1946, 806 01:04:21,693 --> 01:04:32,840 there’s a group of people, and she would like to know something about them, if you can. 807 01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:32,840 A group of people, that’s in Ternovka’s 808 01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:32,840 Yes 809 01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:32,840 graveyard 810 01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:33,500 yes, yes 811 01:04:33,500 --> 01:04:35,030 so, er, these are Jews, who stayed alive 812 01:04:35,030 --> 01:04:35,380 yes 813 01:04:35,380 --> 01:04:36,290 eeer, after the war, 814 01:04:36,290 --> 01:04:36,650 and she 815 01:04:36,650 --> 01:04:40,580 they were, some were in the army, me, others were, (some) were evacuated, had come back 816 01:04:40,580 --> 01:04:41,090 a 817 01:04:41,090 --> 01:04:57,593 and they already didn’t live in Ternovka, they had just come to the day, when there had been 818 01:04:57,593 --> 01:05:13,220 executions, the 27th of May, 1942, for that day we used to gather there in the graveyard. 819 01:05:13,220 --> 01:05:13,350 a 820 01:05:21,370 --> 01:05:29,060 They had come from several cities, and into the Soviet Union. 821 01:05:29,060 --> 01:05:37,516 One second. Тhe picture he showed you at the graveyard, this is the one you’re talking about, he says, 822 01:05:37,516 --> 01:05:45,811 it has, it’s the picture of people who survived, but they didn’t live there, it’s, er, every day, 823 01:05:45,811 --> 01:05:54,509 every year they used to come on the, on 25th of May, er, it was the day that they, er, er, had er, execution 824 01:05:54,509 --> 01:06:02,563 or something like that, and in, in the memory of, of that execution they, they all got together, all 825 01:06:02,563 --> 01:06:10,697 the people who survived, and they survived because of different ways, in different ways, some were in 826 01:06:10,697 --> 01:06:18,831 the, in the army already, some were evacuated from there, but as a, as to remember and to commemorate 827 01:06:18,831 --> 01:06:24,630 they get together, er, every year, er, to, er, to commemorate this date. 828 01:06:24,630 --> 01:06:25,330 You don’t have to make it so long, right. 829 01:06:25,330 --> 01:06:25,580 OK. 830 01:06:25,580 --> 01:06:26,780 I understand. 831 01:06:26,780 --> 01:06:30,190 I, I just want to know if he knows people on that picture. 832 01:06:30,190 --> 01:06:31,360 Ahem. 833 01:06:31,360 --> 01:06:35,670 She she would like to know if, whom do you know in this photo. 834 01:06:35,670 --> 01:06:37,440 I know everyone. 835 01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:38,900 He knows everyone. 836 01:06:38,900 --> 01:06:41,870 OK. I want to talk about it, but first I would like to start ] 837 01:06:41,870 --> 01:06:44,550 Many of them are no longer alive, many died there. 838 01:06:44,550 --> 01:06:50,200 I, I want him to tell me about those people. 839 01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:50,310 Ahem. 840 01:06:50,310 --> 01:06:50,660 Ja. 841 01:06:50,660 --> 01:06:54,160 This shot was taken in 1960, that that’s almost fifty years ago by now laughs. 842 01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:55,360 She would like to know a little bit about about about these people, a few. 843 01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:55,580 Eeer. 844 01:06:55,580 --> 01:07:06,890 That what you can, if you can take out this picture, this 845 01:07:06,890 --> 01:07:10,520 I can, I need to come closer to here. 846 01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:12,650 We, we’ll do it later. 847 01:07:12,650 --> 01:07:16,440 So that we can do later. 848 01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:18,400 Let us start a little bit with what happened after the war. 849 01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:21,000 If you can begin with that, what was with you after the war. 850 01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:22,330 After the war? 851 01:07:22,330 --> 01:07:24,880 How he met his beautiful woman. 852 01:07:25,790 --> 01:07:32,080 How you met your wife. 853 01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:39,450 Well, I demobilized in November 1945, and from Berlin I came to Ternovka. 854 01:07:39,450 --> 01:07:40,470 That, what he said. 855 01:07:40,470 --> 01:07:44,890 Er, he moved at 1945, at November 45 in Chernovka. Into Chernovka? 856 01:07:44,890 --> 01:07:44,890 To Ternovka. 857 01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:45,880 To a place called Chernovka. 858 01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:45,880 That’s where I was born. 859 01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:45,880 And eh he eh 860 01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:45,880 It’s not going well, forty 861 01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:46,650 Wait, wait, wait. 862 01:07:46,650 --> 01:07:48,730 All this technology 863 01:07:48,730 --> 01:07:48,730 Yes, yes. 864 01:07:48,730 --> 01:07:48,930 It’s just fine. 865 01:07:48,930 --> 01:07:49,160 OK. 866 01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:49,560 Ja. 867 01:07:49,560 --> 01:07:50,070 OK. 868 01:07:50,070 --> 01:08:05,620 You, you returned to Chernovka. 869 01:08:05,620 --> 01:08:09,350 After the army I returned to Ternovka 870 01:08:09,350 --> 01:08:09,940 In 1945. 871 01:08:09,940 --> 01:08:11,780 In 1945, in November. 872 01:08:11,780 --> 01:08:17,590 At November forty-five, after the arm after the army he returned to Chernovka. 873 01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:25,790 There was not anyone of mine, in that [?] the Germans (had) killed. 874 01:08:25,790 --> 01:08:31,220 He nobody was left of his family, they were all killed by the, the Germans. 875 01:08:33,110 --> 01:08:33,870 Ja. 876 01:08:34,670 --> 01:08:39,590 I spent there two weeks, with acquaintances and [?], and then I found out that to Khoshchevato, 877 01:08:39,590 --> 01:08:43,060 at thirty kilometers from Ternovka, my uncle had returned from [?]. 878 01:08:43,060 --> 01:08:50,112 Er, he spent, er, two weeks there with people he knew, just acquaintances, 879 01:08:50,112 --> 01:08:55,450 and then he heard that What’s the second city called? 880 01:08:55,450 --> 01:08:57,260 Khoshchevato, that’s a small place. 881 01:08:57,260 --> 01:09:01,078 That a place called Khachevata, which is about thirty kilometers 882 01:09:01,078 --> 01:09:04,360 from Chernovka, er, er, an uncle of his returned there. 883 01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:10,890 I met there Yevgeniya, she had returned from the army, also demobilized in November 1945, we 884 01:09:10,890 --> 01:09:17,350 met there, fell in love with each other, and married, on January 15th, 1946 we got married. 885 01:09:17,350 --> 01:09:25,987 Er, when he went there to that place, to met his uncle, he met his wife and 886 01:09:25,987 --> 01:09:34,739 she also returned from the army. They met at that place at this small stack, 887 01:09:34,739 --> 01:09:41,880 a small shtetl, small, and met, fell in love, and got married. 888 01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:41,880 When in November? 889 01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:51,560 Forty- 1945, in November 1945 she had also returned home and I met her there [?]. 890 01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:53,630 And you married when? 891 01:09:53,630 --> 01:09:54,520 January 15th, forty-six. 892 01:09:54,520 --> 01:09:58,820 And they got married at January 15, 1946. 893 01:10:01,140 --> 01:10:01,650 And then? 894 01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:07,170 And then? 895 01:10:11,540 --> 01:10:13,974 Well, I worked in Khoshchevato as a photographer, I was, well, my hand is not able to work 896 01:10:13,974 --> 01:10:16,220 otherways, I could not study after the death camp, I found a job as a photographer. 897 01:10:16,220 --> 01:10:20,969 There he started working as a photographer. He says he couldn’t do 898 01:10:20,969 --> 01:10:25,719 anything else, he couldn’t study anything after the, the lagers of 899 01:10:25,719 --> 01:10:30,329 death, after the camps, and he found, er, a job as a photographer. 900 01:10:30,330 --> 01:10:30,330 Mm [?] 901 01:10:30,330 --> 01:10:37,893 Then I moved from Khoshchevato to Gayvoron, that’s a regional centre, 20,000 inhabitants, 902 01:10:37,893 --> 01:10:44,460 Gayvoron. Igor Krutoy, the director Igor Krutoy was was born in this Gayvoron. 903 01:10:44,460 --> 01:10:44,620 Mm. 904 01:10:44,620 --> 01:10:49,340 I worked there for twenty-five years as a manager of a photo studio, in Gayvoron. 905 01:10:50,110 --> 01:10:54,680 He moved from that city, to Ga 906 01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:54,810 Gay-vo-ron. 907 01:10:54,810 --> 01:10:54,970 Gayvoron. 908 01:10:54,970 --> 01:10:55,780 Gayvoron. 909 01:10:55,780 --> 01:11:01,320 where he worked for twenty-five years as a, as a lead , er, leading photographer. 910 01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:11,198 I lived there for twenty-five years. The children grew up, got married, one to Odessa, the 911 01:11:11,198 --> 01:11:18,960 second married to Odessa, so we sold everything and moved also to Odessa, in 1975. 912 01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:18,960 And you have two children? 913 01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:18,960 Yes. 914 01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:18,960 A boy and a gi 915 01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:18,960 Two boys, yes. 916 01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:19,860 Two boys. 917 01:11:19,860 --> 01:11:26,459 He has two sons and they both married and moved to Odessa, so they sold 918 01:11:26,459 --> 01:11:32,130 everything they had and also moved to Odessa, it was in 1975. 919 01:11:32,130 --> 01:11:33,450 In 1975? 920 01:11:33,450 --> 01:11:33,770 Yes. 921 01:11:33,770 --> 01:11:34,850 1975. 922 01:11:34,850 --> 01:11:39,140 And we spent fifteen years in Odessa and in ’90 we moved to here. 923 01:11:39,250 --> 01:11:45,430 He they lived in Odessa fifteen years and in 1990 they moved to Israel, they came to Israel. 924 01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:51,170 Mm. What made them decide, was it anti-Semitism in the Ukraine, or what made them decide to move? 925 01:11:51,170 --> 01:11:54,330 Why did you decide to move to Israel? 926 01:11:54,330 --> 01:12:05,644 Er Well, that I had together for a long time, somewhere we must have some soil, our own soil, that 927 01:12:05,644 --> 01:12:16,620 another man’s soil for all that is not ours, we decided to return to our historical motherland. 928 01:12:16,620 --> 01:12:19,170 And did you feel some sort of anti-Semitism in Odessa? 929 01:12:19,170 --> 01:12:24,694 Nnno, I worked for twenty-five years in Ode in Gayvoron, in Odessa the same, 930 01:12:24,694 --> 01:12:30,000 there are many Jews in Odessa and the Jews felt not, not, not frustrated. 931 01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:38,538 He says that he had, er, for a long time he had thoughts that the Jews have to have a place a soil 932 01:12:38,538 --> 01:12:46,037 of their own and he was fiddling with that thought and eventually they decided to come and live in 933 01:12:46,037 --> 01:12:53,383 the land of their ancestors, of their fathers, he says he didn’t experience any anti-Semitism, 934 01:12:53,383 --> 01:13:00,805 neither in the place where he worked for twenty-five years, nor in Odessa, where he spent fifteen 935 01:13:00,805 --> 01:13:07,310 years, they, he says, the jews there didn’t feel unwelcome or banned from things or 936 01:13:07,310 --> 01:13:08,100 Where did he get all those 937 01:13:08,100 --> 01:13:08,100 She asks about your 938 01:13:08,100 --> 01:13:10,754 Well, me, I participated after the camp, I went, but she, yesterday I told, after 939 01:13:10,754 --> 01:13:13,376 the camp, Khelm, when our troops liberated Khelm, the town of Khelm in Poland, I 940 01:13:13,376 --> 01:13:16,097 went to the commander and they sent me to the army. I was checked out for two weeks 941 01:13:16,097 --> 01:13:18,490 by Smersh, that’s such a serious organization where they look for spies 942 01:13:18,490 --> 01:13:18,490 One little second, please. 943 01:13:18,490 --> 01:13:18,490 Yes. 944 01:13:18,490 --> 01:13:19,760 [?] When was that? 945 01:13:27,660 --> 01:13:29,110 That was in July, 1944. 946 01:13:29,110 --> 01:13:31,400 And that was in Khelm? 947 01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:44,580 In Khelm. 948 01:13:44,580 --> 01:13:51,153 In July forty-four in Khelm, when they liberated when the, er , the Russian army 949 01:13:51,153 --> 01:13:57,726 so liberated Khelm, he came to the, eeer, commanding officer and this commanding 950 01:13:57,726 --> 01:14:04,464 officer sent him to the recruited, to the army, he said that he was, for two weeks 951 01:14:04,464 --> 01:14:10,380 he was checked out by an organization called Smersh, was, the job was to 952 01:14:10,380 --> 01:14:10,530 Investigate the spies. 953 01:14:10,530 --> 01:14:10,530 OK. 954 01:14:10,530 --> 01:14:10,800 Please. 955 01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:17,713 And when they had been checking for two weeks and found out that I wasn’t a 956 01:14:17,713 --> 01:14:24,985 Polizei, I wasn’t a traitor, they sent me to the 69th army, just then and there 957 01:14:24,985 --> 01:14:31,180 in Khelm the 69th army was passing by, it was the first Russian front 958 01:14:31,260 --> 01:14:32,450 Mm. 959 01:14:32,450 --> 01:14:38,800 I went there to the 336th division 960 01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:46,206 After they did all the authentifications and saw he wasn’t a Polizei or anything 961 01:14:46,206 --> 01:14:52,710 like that, they sent him to the 69th armory, army, armory and to the 300 962 01:14:52,710 --> 01:14:54,720 336th division. Of the 69th army. 963 01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:54,720 [?] 964 01:14:54,720 --> 01:15:01,270 OK. That was just passing through Khelm. 965 01:15:02,290 --> 01:15:02,740 And you 966 01:15:02,740 --> 01:15:07,480 We crossed the Visla 967 01:15:07,480 --> 01:15:07,690 Mm 968 01:15:07,690 --> 01:15:08,880 the Visla river 969 01:15:09,330 --> 01:15:10,990 They moved over the Visla, they 970 01:15:10,990 --> 01:15:10,990 Yeah. 971 01:15:10,990 --> 01:15:10,990 Mm. 972 01:15:10,990 --> 01:15:15,480 And there was a bridgehead, the Pulavsky bridgehead it was called, Pulava, 973 01:15:15,480 --> 01:15:20,031 the town[Pulava was on that side of the Visla, and we consolidated our hold 974 01:15:20,031 --> 01:15:24,340 on this bridgehead, in order to then be able to go further into attack. 975 01:15:24,340 --> 01:15:32,410 Mm, they, er, settled in a platsdarm at the Visla from the other side and 976 01:15:32,410 --> 01:15:32,410 Pulavsky, Pulavsky, that’s important, Pulavsky. 977 01:15:32,410 --> 01:15:32,410 Pulavsky. 978 01:15:32,410 --> 01:15:32,950 Allright, Pulavsky. 979 01:15:32,950 --> 01:15:36,730 The Pulavsky, yes, yes, bridgehead. 980 01:15:36,730 --> 01:15:37,430 The Pulavsky platsdarm. 981 01:15:37,430 --> 01:15:38,210 Bridgehead. 982 01:15:38,350 --> 01:15:45,930 And they, er, they had to secure it, so they could continue their 983 01:15:47,110 --> 01:15:48,090 To the other army, ja. 984 01:15:48,090 --> 01:15:48,570 Yes. 985 01:15:54,290 --> 01:15:57,960 Er, a bridgehead, rather small, 986 01:15:57,960 --> 01:15:58,340 Mm. 987 01:15:58,340 --> 01:16:01,680 Thirty-five kilometers width, and le depth, fourteen kilometers. 988 01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:05,440 Forty-nine Fourteen depth and thirty-five length. 989 01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:14,480 To our south on the Visla was the first Ukrainian front, there was the Sandomirsky bridgehead, the Sandomirsky, 990 01:16:14,480 --> 01:16:19,460 there was a big one, hundred and five kilometers to thirty-five, but we had a small one. 991 01:16:19,460 --> 01:16:25,810 And to their south there was the first Ukranian frontier, their, their 992 01:16:25,810 --> 01:16:32,434 frontier was the first Russian frontier, and to their, to their south was 993 01:16:32,434 --> 01:16:38,149 on, on the Visla the first Ukrainian frontier, and this was, er 994 01:16:38,150 --> 01:16:40,040 How was it called? 995 01:16:40,040 --> 01:16:41,930 The Sandomirsky bridgehead. Sandomir, Sandomir. 996 01:16:41,930 --> 01:16:41,930 [?] 997 01:16:41,930 --> 01:16:48,360 Mm. And it was a bigger one, er, one hundred Hundred? 998 01:16:48,750 --> 01:16:51,370 Hundred and five to thirty-five. 999 01:16:51,370 --> 01:16:54,080 Hundred and five over thirty-five. 1000 01:16:56,160 --> 01:17:02,826 They went into attack. The twelfth of January, 1945, we heard cannon fire when they 1001 01:17:02,826 --> 01:17:08,770 went into attack. We went two days later, the fourteenth of January, 1945. 1002 01:17:08,770 --> 01:17:17,159 They, the, the other platsdarm, the Ukrainians, they started the, the attack on janualy, January 1003 01:17:17,159 --> 01:17:24,500 12th 1945, and they, their regiment, they went two days later, 14th of January 1945. 1004 01:17:24,500 --> 01:17:28,370 We went into attack, to Poznan. 1005 01:17:28,370 --> 01:17:28,520 To Poznan? 1006 01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:28,520 Poznan. 1007 01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:29,410 They went to 1008 01:17:29,410 --> 01:17:30,140 Poznan. 1009 01:17:30,140 --> 01:17:30,610 Poznan. 1010 01:17:30,610 --> 01:17:37,300 There is the Poznan fortress and the Germans were strongly fortified. 1011 01:17:37,300 --> 01:17:44,220 The, there is the, er, like a war, wall. 1012 01:17:44,230 --> 01:17:44,470 Ja. 1013 01:17:44,470 --> 01:17:47,840 Where the Germans were very strong seated. 1014 01:17:48,490 --> 01:17:48,710 Mm. 1015 01:17:48,710 --> 01:17:52,655 Aaand the companies already laid already in order to go into attack, but the company’s commander, 1016 01:17:52,655 --> 01:17:56,324 first lieutenant Khlusov calls, sergeant-major Vebel is wounded and I was put in place of the 1017 01:17:56,324 --> 01:17:59,993 sergeant-major, he got wounded. So as to The soldiers ran out of cartridges and grenades, so 1018 01:17:59,993 --> 01:18:03,781 that I on a sledge, ’t was January, yes, on a sledge fetched for them grenades and cartridges, 1019 01:18:03,781 --> 01:18:07,489 I took Polacks and a sledge, loaded a box with grenades and a box with cartridges and he, the 1020 01:18:07,489 --> 01:18:10,370 battalion’s commander, explained to me how to get to us, to the company 1021 01:18:10,370 --> 01:18:10,460 Mm. 1022 01:18:15,830 --> 01:18:16,840 So that you got into the anti-tank trench, ten minutes 1023 01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:17,490 Mm. 1024 01:18:17,490 --> 01:18:30,166 Then you get out, you go forward, and right there your company 1025 01:18:30,166 --> 01:18:42,230 lies. And all, I fetched all and they gave me a decoration. 1026 01:18:42,230 --> 01:18:49,290 Er, when they were already at the, in front of the s er 1027 01:18:49,290 --> 01:18:49,650 Germans. 1028 01:18:49,650 --> 01:18:56,316 They, er, they got a call from the people that were, er, at the first front, that they, 1029 01:18:56,316 --> 01:19:02,140 the soldiers ran out of ammunition, they needed, er, er, gran , handgrenades 1030 01:19:02,140 --> 01:19:03,870 Grenades and ? 1031 01:19:04,540 --> 01:19:05,410 Cartridges. 1032 01:19:05,410 --> 01:19:06,550 And bullets. 1033 01:19:06,550 --> 01:19:07,110 Yes. 1034 01:19:09,260 --> 01:19:18,065 And, er, he, he had to take over a soldier that was injured, he was in a higher position 1035 01:19:18,065 --> 01:19:26,170 and he took, er, he took, er, er, snow, snow, er, snowskis or something like that 1036 01:19:26,170 --> 01:19:26,500 Yes. 1037 01:19:26,500 --> 01:19:31,600 Er, from a Polack, put everything armed it and his commanding officer 1038 01:19:31,600 --> 01:19:35,740 explained to him how to get, of this, their front, their 1039 01:19:35,740 --> 01:19:36,740 OK, make it shorter. 1040 01:19:36,740 --> 01:19:43,310 OK. And that is how he got one, of one, of the orden. 1041 01:19:43,310 --> 01:19:45,815 Well, and there they gave several medals, jubilee ones for the victory over 1042 01:19:45,815 --> 01:19:48,020 Germany, there, various jubilee ones then they were giving already 1043 01:19:48,310 --> 01:19:53,403 And after that they used to give in all the ceremonies the 1044 01:19:53,403 --> 01:19:58,410 medals for participating in the victory over the Germans. 1045 01:19:58,410 --> 01:19:58,750 Thank you. 1046 01:19:58,750 --> 01:20:00,070 And there in Poznan I got wounded. 1047 01:20:00,100 --> 01:20:02,650 And he was, he was, er 1048 01:20:02,650 --> 01:20:05,956 I made, er, I made a picture of his hand, and I’ll make 1049 01:20:05,956 --> 01:20:08,740 a picture of it again. Will you tell him please? 1050 01:20:08,740 --> 01:20:10,640 She wants, if possible, er, photograph your hand. 1051 01:20:10,640 --> 01:20:11,110 She already yesterday photographed (it). 1052 01:20:12,260 --> 01:20:13,800 She said that she knows but she wants another time. 1053 01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:14,140 Mmm. 1054 01:20:14,140 --> 01:20:30,670 OK, I make one more. 1055 01:20:30,670 --> 01:20:34,520 ? laughs 1056 01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:37,610 So I want him to read this. 1057 01:20:38,150 --> 01:20:39,330 Mm. To the camera. 1058 01:20:39,330 --> 01:20:42,610 Would he, to the camera, the, the text that he just read before 1059 01:20:42,610 --> 01:20:42,760 Mm. 1060 01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:47,440 Would he mind to read it, because it will make it easier to show it, in wherever 1061 01:20:47,440 --> 01:20:54,760 She asks if you can read that which you wro wrote down. 1062 01:20:54,760 --> 01:20:55,350 Yes I can. 1063 01:20:55,350 --> 01:21:04,040 And, and you don’t have to translate, because it will be translated. Tell him please. 1064 01:21:04,040 --> 01:21:08,416 And besides apart from that, this they will, it will by them, they will make a translation 1065 01:21:08,416 --> 01:21:12,460 litt. transmission so as to be understandable also to those who don’t know Russian. 1066 01:21:12,460 --> 01:21:26,450 And I’ll send him the translation, so he can use it. 1067 01:21:26,450 --> 01:21:30,080 And she will send you, er, the transmission if you will want with her 1068 01:21:30,080 --> 01:21:30,550 Thank you. 1069 01:21:30,550 --> 01:21:32,270 In English. 1070 01:21:32,270 --> 01:21:33,163 The schizophrenic Hitler and his clique – “Deutschland 1071 01:21:33,163 --> 01:21:33,810 ueber alles” is the basis of their call. 1072 01:21:33,810 --> 01:21:36,570 In that gibberish, in this gibberish the German philistine believed with the greatest ease. 1073 01:21:36,570 --> 01:21:38,323 From small to great they screamed “Heil”, and those who didn’t 1074 01:21:38,323 --> 01:21:39,690 scream “Heil” perished in the concentration camp. 1075 01:21:39,690 --> 01:21:39,690 And such honest Germans existed, not a few. 1076 01:21:39,690 --> 01:21:42,810 For this gibberish the people of the Earth paid a very high price. 1077 01:21:42,810 --> 01:21:53,148 Our hunted people, the people of the Thora book, paid with mountains of corpses, 1078 01:21:53,148 --> 01:22:01,420 and with the ashes of Dachau, Auschwitz, Treblinka, and Sobibor. 1079 01:22:01,420 --> 01:22:06,050 This is what you get from schizophrenic gibberish. 1080 01:22:06,940 --> 01:22:16,443 But the end went, the end came to the patience of our people, the 1081 01:22:16,443 --> 01:22:25,800 fires of the Warsaw ghetto flared up in the twinkling of an eye. 1082 01:22:25,800 --> 01:22:29,220 The Warsaw Jews stood firm: twenty days no fascist foot was set into the ghetto. 1083 01:22:29,220 --> 01:22:32,660 In the footsteps of the courageous Warsawers Sobibor death camp rose. 1084 01:22:32,660 --> 01:22:34,940 With axes, with knives we killed the fascists. 1085 01:22:34,940 --> 01:22:35,520 We tore apart the barbwire with our bare hands. 1086 01:22:35,520 --> 01:22:36,840 The fourteenth of October became a funeral repast for eleven fascists. 1087 01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:48,780 This day was for many prisoners their last one. 1088 01:22:48,780 --> 01:22:53,320 They gave their lives not in vain, Sobibor death camp was extinguished forever. 1089 01:22:53,320 --> 01:22:54,860 At our horizon an extinguished star was reborn, a star of hope, a star 1090 01:22:54,860 --> 01:22:56,180 of life, a star of freedom, and this star is called: Israel. 1091 01:22:56,180 --> 01:22:57,943 May this star shine for the Jews in all, always, always, two 1092 01:22:57,943 --> 01:22:59,530 thousand years we, the Jews, have waited for this day. 1093 01:22:59,530 --> 01:23:07,585 Well, this is dedicated to the sixty-fifth anniversary of the day of 1094 01:23:07,585 --> 01:23:14,930 the insurrection in Sobibor death camp, 14th of October, 1943. 1095 01:23:14,930 --> 01:23:25,974 On the picture to the right the leader of the insurrection, Alexandr Pechersky, who left 1096 01:23:25,974 --> 01:23:35,890 us on the 19th of January, 1990, in Rostov-on-Don. Blessed forever be his name. 1097 01:23:35,890 --> 01:23:42,052 I, the author of these words, an active participant in the insurrection, Semyon 1098 01:23:42,052 --> 01:23:47,980 Rozenfeld, born Ukraine, small town of Ternovka, currently live in Tel Aviv. 1099 01:23:47,980 --> 01:23:50,240 Did he write it? 1100 01:23:50,240 --> 01:23:51,760 Yes, he’s the author. 1101 01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:52,380 What? 1102 01:23:52,380 --> 01:23:52,930 He’s the author. 1103 01:23:52,930 --> 01:23:55,320 Why did he write it? Can you ask him? 1104 01:23:58,090 --> 01:24:01,970 Er, can you, she asks, why did you write this text? 1105 01:24:01,970 --> 01:24:03,570 Well, this tormented me, I had to speak out. 1106 01:24:03,570 --> 01:24:08,540 He says, er, it, eеr, it, it was in his soul, it was tormenting 1107 01:24:08,540 --> 01:24:12,890 him and he sa he had a need to to let it out, to tell it 1108 01:24:12,890 --> 01:24:15,500 I met in Berlin a lot of Germans. 1109 01:24:15,500 --> 01:24:15,680 Mm. 1110 01:24:15,680 --> 01:24:21,308 I spoke German rather well. And I even met a man, a dentist, who lived 1111 01:24:21,308 --> 01:24:26,695 not far away from us. I had, I had a toothache and he acquainted me 1112 01:24:26,695 --> 01:24:31,680 with his wife, he had for ten years hidden his wife, a Jewess. 1113 01:24:31,680 --> 01:24:40,510 When he was in Berlin, he met many Germans, he spoke very good German. 1114 01:24:40,510 --> 01:24:45,501 And he also met a dentist, who took care of his tooth, that during 1115 01:24:45,501 --> 01:24:50,190 the war for about ten years he, he was hiding his Jewish wife. 1116 01:24:55,320 --> 01:24:55,350 Mm. 1117 01:24:55,350 --> 01:25:01,748 Not far from Berlin there were these Ribbentrop stables, the hippodrome of Ribbentrop, 1118 01:25:01,748 --> 01:25:07,700 there in that place, there were many rooms and an army ration dump was organized 1119 01:25:07,700 --> 01:25:13,652 in these rooms, that was for where flour, bread, was stored for the whole army, 1120 01:25:13,652 --> 01:25:18,860 the 69th army. I was corporal and then head of the guard of this dump. 1121 01:25:19,330 --> 01:25:24,920 He was, when he was in Berlin, there the, er, stables of Ribben, Ribbentrop, where the 1122 01:25:26,170 --> 01:25:27,290 The hippodrome, the hippodrome of Ribbentrop. 1123 01:25:27,660 --> 01:25:28,170 Ja. 1124 01:25:28,170 --> 01:25:35,612 Hippodrome, and where they kept all the supplies for his 69th army, and 1125 01:25:35,612 --> 01:25:42,530 he was in charge of all this area, this was what he did in Berlin. 1126 01:25:42,530 --> 01:25:46,350 So who is Pechersky, to the left or to the right? 1127 01:25:46,480 --> 01:25:47,330 This is 1128 01:25:47,330 --> 01:25:59,930 This is Pechersky and this is him. Er, how did he meet Pechersky? 1129 01:25:59,930 --> 01:26:05,680 [?] sat in the school where I studied, he finished ten classes in Ternovka school. 1130 01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:07,360 This is the school he studied in, in Cherno Chernovska, ten 1131 01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:07,360 Thank you very much. 1132 01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:07,360 Thank you very much. 1133 01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:07,970 This is me with my comrade in 1938, before, er, thirty- 1939. 1134 01:26:07,970 --> 01:26:07,970 This is a picture of him and his friend on 1135 01:26:07,970 --> 01:26:07,970 1939. 1136 01:26:07,970 --> 01:26:08,680 1939, before the war. 1137 01:26:08,680 --> 01:26:08,680 1939. 1138 01:26:08,680 --> 01:26:08,800 Er, er, sorry. So who are they? 1139 01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:10,960 And that 1140 01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:15,040 And, and your friends, can you tell something about them? 1141 01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:17,410 Left, from the left to the right. 1142 01:26:17,410 --> 01:26:21,290 From left to right, if you can. 1143 01:26:21,290 --> 01:26:23,890 Eeer, this tank crew member, tank crew member 1144 01:26:23,890 --> 01:26:24,240 Mm. 1145 01:26:24,240 --> 01:26:24,580 perished 1146 01:26:24,580 --> 01:26:25,340 This 1147 01:26:26,100 --> 01:26:26,230 forty-one. 1148 01:26:26,230 --> 01:26:57,710 drove a tank, died forty-one. 1149 01:26:57,710 --> 01:27:10,852 This one, er was wounded and was evacuated and he, eeer, was already unfit for 1150 01:27:10,852 --> 01:27:23,330 the army service regime and he was saved and already lived in Central Asia. 1151 01:27:23,430 --> 01:27:24,320 This friend of his was injured and then evacuated, this is what saved his life. 1152 01:27:24,320 --> 01:27:24,320 Which one is it? 1153 01:27:24,320 --> 01:27:31,610 This one over here, down there, and eeer, he lived in Central Asia from that moment on. 1154 01:27:34,310 --> 01:27:38,172 And this one here is Misha Mazov, he we served one year in the army, 1155 01:27:38,172 --> 01:27:42,651 in 1940, he found himself in a construction battalion, they built fortifications 1156 01:27:42,651 --> 01:27:45,450 at the border between the Soviet Union and Poland. 1157 01:27:45,450 --> 01:27:45,480 Mm. 1158 01:27:45,600 --> 01:27:51,490 And whe the war began, he was shot through his right leg and they managed to evacuate him in time. 1159 01:27:51,490 --> 01:27:51,680 Eeer. 1160 01:27:51,680 --> 01:28:01,780 And then in Tashkent he finished law school, became a lawyer. 1161 01:28:02,120 --> 01:28:10,810 This is, this man, Misha Mazov, he was in the army, building the frontier between the border between 1162 01:28:10,810 --> 01:28:19,413 Russia and Poland. And when the war started, he was injured in his leg, so they managed to evacuate 1163 01:28:19,413 --> 01:28:26,800 him on time to Tashkent, and then he, then he studied in Tashkent to become a lawyer. 1164 01:28:27,320 --> 01:28:28,690 And then the fourth one? 1165 01:28:28,690 --> 01:28:31,060 And this is you? 1166 01:28:45,800 --> 01:28:45,830 I. 1167 01:28:47,730 --> 01:28:47,870 Mm. 1168 01:28:47,870 --> 01:28:49,930 You were beautiful. 1169 01:28:49,930 --> 01:28:49,930 laughs 1170 01:28:49,930 --> 01:28:49,930 He still is. 1171 01:28:49,930 --> 01:28:50,550 Tell him. 1172 01:28:50,550 --> 01:28:55,690 You were a handsome man. 1173 01:28:55,690 --> 01:28:56,740 Aaa, very. 1174 01:28:56,740 --> 01:28:56,940 laughs 1175 01:28:56,940 --> 01:29:03,575 Twenty-five years here it is after the day of the insurrection, in 1968 In 1176 01:29:03,575 --> 01:29:10,299 1968 we gathered in Rostov and celebrated. This here is Litvinovsky, this is 1177 01:29:10,299 --> 01:29:16,670 Aleksey Vaytser, this is Weisspapier, this is Pechersky, and this is me. 1178 01:29:16,670 --> 01:29:23,340 OK, we go from the right to the left. One 1179 01:29:23,340 --> 01:29:23,340 This is 1180 01:29:23,340 --> 01:29:24,910 two, three, four, five. OK, one is? 1181 01:29:24,910 --> 01:29:25,420 If you 1182 01:29:26,060 --> 01:29:28,100 To the right. 1183 01:29:28,100 --> 01:29:28,310 can again 1184 01:29:28,310 --> 01:29:32,177 Litvinovsky, he died, he is no longer alive, he died 1185 01:29:32,177 --> 01:29:35,970 in Kuybishev. This is Aleksey Vaytser, who [?]. [?] 1186 01:29:35,970 --> 01:29:36,350 Yes 1187 01:29:36,350 --> 01:29:37,390 This is Arkadiy Vayspapir. 1188 01:29:37,390 --> 01:29:38,740 Yes, Vayspapir, yes. 1189 01:29:38,740 --> 01:29:39,450 This is Pechersky. 1190 01:29:39,450 --> 01:29:39,570 Yes [?] 1191 01:29:39,570 --> 01:29:40,550 This is me. 1192 01:29:40,550 --> 01:29:40,810 This is him. 1193 01:29:40,810 --> 01:29:40,810 How did he how did he know Pechersky? 1194 01:29:40,810 --> 01:29:41,150 How did you me How did you know, you meet Pechersky? 1195 01:29:41,150 --> 01:29:49,510 This here is in 1992 here in Tel Aviv, in Jerusalem, I lit a candle on Shiva day. 1196 01:29:49,510 --> 01:29:56,980 Er, he lit this, the Holocaust day in Jerusalem, 1992. 1197 01:29:56,980 --> 01:29:56,980 Wonderful. 1198 01:29:56,980 --> 01:29:56,980 [?] 1199 01:29:56,980 --> 01:29:56,980 Thank you. 1200 01:29:56,980 --> 01:30:04,360 Er, on Shiva, I lit there the second candle, third candle. 1201 01:30:04,360 --> 01:30:06,230 He lit the third candle. 1202 01:30:06,230 --> 01:30:13,440 But I, I’m asking, how did he meet Pechersky? 1203 01:30:13,800 --> 01:30:17,120 How, how did you meet Pechersky? 1204 01:30:17,120 --> 01:30:18,040 Eeer That was 1205 01:30:19,280 --> 01:30:25,540 In Sobibor? 1206 01:30:25,540 --> 01:30:31,950 Neee. In Sobibor I knew him. 1207 01:30:31,950 --> 01:30:41,080 He already knew him in Sobibor. 1208 01:30:41,080 --> 01:30:42,470 I knew him in Minsk. 1209 01:30:42,470 --> 01:30:42,470 In Minsk. 1210 01:30:42,470 --> 01:30:46,205 In Minsk, Minsk (I) knew, but we were there, we were friends, only two, three men and that was 1211 01:30:46,205 --> 01:30:49,861 it, (we) didn’t allow more, I was friends with Sasha [?], Grisha Epshtein and that was it. 1212 01:30:49,861 --> 01:30:53,200 And he was friends with other guys, Shloyme Loytman, eeer, Kali Mali, Shubayev Sasha 1213 01:30:53,200 --> 01:30:53,890 And this was in Sobibor? 1214 01:30:53,890 --> 01:30:53,890 Eeer, in Sobibor, no, that’s in Minsk. 1215 01:30:53,890 --> 01:30:53,890 Minsk. 1216 01:30:53,890 --> 01:30:54,770 In Minsk. 1217 01:30:54,770 --> 01:30:56,820 In Minsk. 1218 01:30:56,820 --> 01:30:58,620 I understand. 1219 01:30:58,620 --> 01:30:59,050 OK. 1220 01:30:59,050 --> 01:30:59,640 Understand. 1221 01:30:59,880 --> 01:31:00,290 Mm. 1222 01:31:00,290 --> 01:31:00,960 Thank you. 1223 01:31:00,960 --> 01:31:07,093 And in Sobibor, when we got (there), me and Sasha, we stayed alive, but the third, Grisha 1224 01:31:07,093 --> 01:31:13,090 Epshtein, went into the woods and we didn’t see him, and he perished somewhere there. 1225 01:31:13,090 --> 01:31:22,917 Mm. When they, when they, er, came to Sobibor, he and his friend Sasha remained there, but the third 1226 01:31:22,917 --> 01:31:32,450 friend, Grisha, they sent him away and they haven’t seen him since. He probably died somewhere. 1227 01:31:32,450 --> 01:31:37,222 The 14th of October I knew that something was being prepared, but that was strictly secret. 1228 01:31:37,222 --> 01:31:42,048 The 14th of October he came to the carpenter’s workshop, they left me at the carpenter’s 1229 01:31:42,048 --> 01:31:45,509 (workshop), so, I didn’t work as a carpenter, I built barracks. 1230 01:31:45,510 --> 01:31:45,960 Mm. 1231 01:31:45,960 --> 01:31:50,708 He came to the carpenter’s workshop, they left me also on the 14th of October after 1232 01:31:50,708 --> 01:31:55,567 lunch, they left (me) in the carpenter’s workshop. He took me aside, he says, Frenzel 1233 01:31:55,567 --> 01:32:00,315 is to come at four o’clock to fetch a cupboard that is being made to his order. Can 1234 01:32:00,315 --> 01:32:04,170 you kill him with an axe? I say, Yes, (he:) Well, prepare yourselves. 1235 01:32:04,170 --> 01:32:04,170 One little second, I, eeer 1236 01:32:04,170 --> 01:32:04,970 Let’s get on. 1237 01:32:04,970 --> 01:32:13,294 He says, he knew that something was going on, but it was all top secret, and 1238 01:32:13,294 --> 01:32:21,291 on, er, October 14th Pechersky came to him, he was working at the, at the 1239 01:32:21,291 --> 01:32:28,629 workshop and he told, and he came to the workshop and told him that 1240 01:32:29,210 --> 01:32:30,520 Who must come? 1241 01:32:30,520 --> 01:32:30,730 Frenzel [?]? 1242 01:32:30,730 --> 01:32:31,350 Frenzel, [?] Frenzel. 1243 01:32:31,350 --> 01:32:35,700 Frenzel is about, need to come and pick up a, er, a 1244 01:32:35,700 --> 01:32:36,970 A coat. 1245 01:32:36,970 --> 01:32:39,970 Something, a cloth or something. 1246 01:32:40,520 --> 01:32:40,650 Ja. 1247 01:32:40,650 --> 01:32:46,990 Can you kill him with an axe, and he said, yes I can. 1248 01:32:52,260 --> 01:32:58,122 From this, from the window of this carpenter’s workshop, (we) chose especially this, er, carpenter’s 1249 01:32:58,122 --> 01:33:03,702 workshop, so that from there would be visible the entry to the cobbler’s workshop, where Shubayev 1250 01:33:03,702 --> 01:33:09,282 and still another one were standing. The entry to that cobbler’s (workshop) were standing Arkadiy 1251 01:33:09,282 --> 01:33:14,750 Wayspapir and Loytman, in the tailor’s workshop Shubayev and yet with another one. Patsebulshky 1252 01:33:14,750 --> 01:33:19,260 they put in the second camp, there four Germans worked, and he had to kill them. 1253 01:33:19,260 --> 01:33:20,200 And all this sss, and during one hour, from four till five on the 14th of October. 1254 01:33:20,200 --> 01:33:28,603 And they picked this, er, special place, this place in the workshop, because it was very 1255 01:33:28,603 --> 01:33:36,720 comfortable, because they could see the, whoever was coming from the Germans and, er, 1256 01:33:36,720 --> 01:33:40,814 he told me about other friends of his that were situated in different places and 1257 01:33:40,814 --> 01:33:44,550 were not been prepared. Cause I don’t really remember I have to ask him 1258 01:33:44,550 --> 01:33:44,550 OK 1259 01:33:44,550 --> 01:33:45,050 over again. 1260 01:33:45,050 --> 01:33:45,390 It’s OK. 1261 01:33:45,390 --> 01:33:52,942 And, er, he said that all the killing of the Germans had to take place during 1262 01:33:52,942 --> 01:33:59,220 one hour between four and five in the afternoon on October 14th. 1263 01:33:59,220 --> 01:34:03,162 There, into the cobbler’s and tailor’s (workshops) 1264 01:34:03,162 --> 01:34:06,740 the Germans came, and there they dealt with them. 1265 01:34:06,740 --> 01:34:07,140 Mm. 1266 01:34:07,140 --> 01:34:08,107 Frenzel didn’t come to the carpenter’s (workshop), 1267 01:34:08,107 --> 01:34:09,040 they sent him somewhere for an urgent cause. He then 1268 01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:14,030 Frenzel, Frenzel didn’t come to the workshop, he was sent away to 1269 01:34:14,030 --> 01:34:18,198 Therefore, I didn’t fulfil the task, but Pechersky didn’t mind, he 1270 01:34:18,198 --> 01:34:22,010 says, because of one swine we won’t lo lose the insurrection. 1271 01:34:22,010 --> 01:34:27,539 He, he didn’t, he was, he didn’t, because Frenzel didn’t come, he couldn’t 1272 01:34:27,539 --> 01:34:32,260 kill him, but Pechersky said, for one German we will not stop the, the 1273 01:34:32,260 --> 01:34:32,940 Revolt. 1274 01:34:32,940 --> 01:34:34,100 The revolt. 1275 01:34:34,100 --> 01:34:39,112 At five o’clock, when Patsebulshky came from there, from the second camp, singing, already there 1276 01:34:39,112 --> 01:34:44,074 that the Dutchmen also worked in the second camp, he comes with songs and that means, means, that 1277 01:34:44,074 --> 01:34:49,291 he killed four Germans, Shubayev, Shagal, Patsebulshky comes with songs, he took out his pistol, fired 1278 01:34:49,291 --> 01:34:53,690 into the air, yelled, For the Motherland, for Stalin, forward! And we started running. 1279 01:34:53,690 --> 01:34:53,690 At five o’clock 1280 01:34:53,690 --> 01:34:53,690 I understood. 1281 01:34:53,690 --> 01:34:53,930 OK. 1282 01:34:53,930 --> 01:35:00,846 I ran with the axe to the barbwire behind [?] premises and wanted to chop off the wire, 1283 01:35:00,846 --> 01:35:08,081 I didn’t succeed, I dropped the axe, climbed over the wire, three-meter fence and a short 1284 01:35:08,081 --> 01:35:15,077 run (across) into the forest, in the forest I felt, in my leg something hurts, I looked, 1285 01:35:15,077 --> 01:35:21,120 there a bullet had torn its way through the flesh, I didn’t pay attention. 1286 01:35:21,310 --> 01:35:29,030 He run over to the fence with an axe, the wired fence, and tried to open the door 1287 01:35:29,530 --> 01:35:30,320 And he climbed over. 1288 01:35:30,320 --> 01:35:35,088 And he climbed over, and then at, at the forest he felt that something was, 1289 01:35:35,088 --> 01:35:39,730 er, bothering him, and he was hu he saw that he had a bullet in his leg. 1290 01:35:40,800 --> 01:35:46,192 There on that spot where we had made it to the woods, there were about fifty people, 1291 01:35:46,192 --> 01:35:51,777 they had ran to other places, but they all the same ran up lumping together, and there, 1292 01:35:51,777 --> 01:35:56,400 where we were, fifty people, we went for twenty-four hours all together. 1293 01:35:56,400 --> 01:36:02,499 Er, he, they got to a point in the woods, er, at a certain point there were fifty people, 1294 01:36:02,499 --> 01:36:08,187 but many others escaped to different directions, but his group, where he was, there 1295 01:36:08,187 --> 01:36:13,190 were fifty of them, and for twenty-four hours they were walking together. 1296 01:36:13,190 --> 01:36:13,190 Mm. 1297 01:36:13,190 --> 01:36:18,674 We de we understood, that this way, fifty people, we won’t 1298 01:36:18,674 --> 01:36:23,350 be able to hide, we must split up into small groups. 1299 01:36:23,350 --> 01:36:25,620 They understood that they had to separate into smaller groups. 1300 01:36:25,620 --> 01:36:30,582 We split up, I more to Freyberg and Ramler, he died two years ago, and 1301 01:36:30,582 --> 01:36:35,615 we walked on and came to Khelm, five kilometers from Khelm in the woods 1302 01:36:35,615 --> 01:36:40,010 we met two brothers, who had escaped from the pogrom in Khelm. 1303 01:36:40,490 --> 01:36:42,870 Er, they, he and his friend walked to, walked towards 1304 01:36:42,870 --> 01:36:43,300 Khelm. 1305 01:36:43,300 --> 01:36:47,843 Khelm, and about five kilometers from Khelm they met 1306 01:36:47,843 --> 01:36:52,300 two, er, two guys, who escaped the pogrom in Khelm. 1307 01:36:52,300 --> 01:36:56,110 And that he has already told yesterday, so let’s cut it short. 1308 01:36:56,110 --> 01:36:56,440 OK. 1309 01:36:56,440 --> 01:36:57,680 Can you tell him? 1310 01:36:57,680 --> 01:37:02,010 Cut it short to where? What would you like 1311 01:37:02,010 --> 01:37:02,180 We stop here. 1312 01:37:02,180 --> 01:37:02,180 OK. 1313 01:37:02,180 --> 01:37:03,850 Because he already did, told at the other time. 1314 01:37:03,850 --> 01:37:10,140 OK, this, this, this, this part in, and the rest, this is what you already told ye 1315 01:37:10,140 --> 01:37:11,050 Yes, yes. 1316 01:37:11,050 --> 01:37:11,220 Yes. 1317 01:37:11,220 --> 01:37:12,120 Yes, yes. 1318 01:37:12,120 --> 01:37:12,340 Yes. 1319 01:37:12,340 --> 01:37:16,110 And I don’t want to burden him today. 1320 01:37:16,110 --> 01:37:16,110 She, she doesn’t want that you too much 1321 01:37:16,110 --> 01:37:16,110 No, no, it’s hard for me 1322 01:37:16,110 --> 01:37:16,110 So, no need if you already told. 1323 01:37:16,110 --> 01:37:16,110 I told, yes, yes. 1324 01:37:16,110 --> 01:37:16,110 So. 1325 01:37:16,110 --> 01:37:21,420 So can we now look at the picture of 1946 and get that off him, please? 1326 01:37:21,420 --> 01:37:21,420 So, now, if possible 1327 01:37:21,420 --> 01:37:24,320 What does she want to know from this? 1328 01:37:24,400 --> 01:37:26,410 What would you like to know from this picture? 1329 01:37:31,020 --> 01:37:50,772 I’m first going to make a photograph. Yes. So those 1330 01:37:50,772 --> 01:38:09,780 are all survivors of who came back to his village? 1331 01:38:09,780 --> 01:38:13,279 This is a memorial we made from our own money, we collected, this 1332 01:38:13,279 --> 01:38:16,240 is how we, when we come together, the 27th of May, 1924 1333 01:38:16,240 --> 01:38:18,050 All these, this, stayed 1334 01:38:18,050 --> 01:38:20,070 These are survivors who were evacuated. 1335 01:38:20,070 --> 01:38:21,090 From you, from your 1336 01:38:21,090 --> 01:38:21,590 Who? 1337 01:38:21,590 --> 01:38:21,590 shtetl? 1338 01:38:21,590 --> 01:38:26,730 Yes, yes. These people are all from Ternovka, all 1339 01:38:27,840 --> 01:38:29,030 All from, er, Cher, Chernovitz, Che, Chernovitz? 1340 01:38:29,850 --> 01:38:30,350 Yes, Ternovka. 1341 01:38:30,350 --> 01:38:31,080 Ter. 1342 01:38:31,080 --> 01:38:31,330 Ternovka. 1343 01:38:31,330 --> 01:38:31,400 OK. 1344 01:38:31,400 --> 01:38:37,850 And to whom was he closest? 1345 01:38:37,850 --> 01:38:39,720 And your, you most close here, who were ? 1346 01:38:39,720 --> 01:38:42,680 Mm, here I don’t have anyone, no one. 1347 01:38:42,680 --> 01:38:43,780 Nobody from 1348 01:38:43,780 --> 01:38:46,180 They all rest here. 1349 01:38:46,180 --> 01:38:50,348 This is, this is a memorial they built, they, from, by the, own, from their 1350 01:38:50,348 --> 01:38:54,350 own money, and he says that all that where close to him are buried here. 1351 01:38:54,350 --> 01:38:57,040 But he knows all the people on the picture? 1352 01:38:57,040 --> 01:38:57,040 But you know everyone. 1353 01:38:57,040 --> 01:38:58,300 I know everyone. 1354 01:38:58,300 --> 01:38:58,620 Yes. 1355 01:38:58,620 --> 01:39:00,420 Can he talk a little bit 1356 01:39:00,420 --> 01:39:01,210 Yes. 1357 01:39:01,210 --> 01:39:03,060 about what 1358 01:39:03,060 --> 01:39:06,380 I can, I can give names, but after all that makes no sense, ta 1359 01:39:06,380 --> 01:39:08,770 He says that 1360 01:39:08,900 --> 01:39:09,930 I know everyone. 1361 01:39:09,930 --> 01:39:11,800 He knows everyone, but it’s 1362 01:39:13,910 --> 01:39:16,520 With this one here I studied in one class, Moyne Kremer. 1363 01:39:16,520 --> 01:39:20,320 With this one he was 1364 01:39:20,500 --> 01:39:21,050 Yes. 1365 01:39:21,050 --> 01:39:22,250 in the same class. 1366 01:39:22,250 --> 01:39:24,340 Wait, about whom more of him 1367 01:39:24,340 --> 01:39:24,340 Moyne Kremer. 1368 01:39:24,340 --> 01:39:25,450 Money Kremer. 1369 01:39:29,560 --> 01:39:32,051 The man in the middle of this picture was in the same 1370 01:39:32,051 --> 01:39:34,260 class. Can you calculate a little bit SpSL him? 1371 01:39:34,260 --> 01:39:36,600 What can you say about him? 1372 01:39:36,600 --> 01:39:41,450 What I How would I know (him), we would meet only at the 27th of May 1373 01:39:41,450 --> 01:39:45,950 for one day and then we would part, everyone his own way, for me 1374 01:39:45,950 --> 01:39:50,240 [?] know they only got together once a year and then 1375 01:39:50,240 --> 01:39:51,910 I know he worked as a teacher. 1376 01:39:51,910 --> 01:39:54,050 He knows he was working as a teacher. 1377 01:39:54,050 --> 01:39:54,050 Ahem. 1378 01:39:54,050 --> 01:40:03,483 Yes. This is Shunkel [?], this is his cousine, this, I know all of them, but I already forgot 1379 01:40:03,483 --> 01:40:11,700 their names. This eeer, my classmate, he perished, eeer, perished after the war. 1380 01:40:11,780 --> 01:40:12,750 The, this one 1381 01:40:14,300 --> 01:40:15,580 Yes, Umansky. 1382 01:40:15,580 --> 01:40:17,240 Died after the war. 1383 01:40:21,940 --> 01:40:29,980 Died after the war, yes. 1384 01:40:29,980 --> 01:40:29,980 Mm. 1385 01:40:29,980 --> 01:40:30,950 Yes, so I don’t already forgot. 1386 01:40:30,950 --> 01:40:30,950 And even 1387 01:40:30,950 --> 01:40:30,950 What are their names. 1388 01:40:30,950 --> 01:40:32,650 [?] he already all their names. 1389 01:40:34,140 --> 01:40:34,270 Mm. 1390 01:40:34,270 --> 01:40:37,800 These are old people, they died already long ago. 1391 01:40:37,800 --> 01:40:40,910 These are old people, who died a long time ago. 1392 01:40:40,910 --> 01:40:49,680 OK, is there anything else he wants to [?]? He has talked me today and yesterday. 1393 01:40:49,970 --> 01:40:56,920 She asks, if there is still something more that you might want to tell, to show 1394 01:40:56,920 --> 01:40:57,580 No(thing) more. 1395 01:40:57,580 --> 01:40:59,040 You already told 1396 01:40:59,040 --> 01:41:04,490 No(thing) more, I told you, in principle, everything. 1397 01:41:04,490 --> 01:41:05,840 He says 1398 01:41:05,840 --> 01:41:06,060 Everything. 1399 01:41:06,060 --> 01:41:08,090 He says that he told you everything and 1400 01:41:08,090 --> 01:41:08,090 Thank you very much. 1401 01:41:08,090 --> 01:41:08,090 Thank you very much. 1402 01:41:08,090 --> 01:41:10,110 You’re welcome here